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LLLLL wrote:
Apparently spec only sell 500 DH bikes a year, they mentioned it on one of the podcasts. So 100 might be a stretch.
Urlpls. Seriously. There was talk of 50 enduro bikes for every DH bikes sold from 'one of the big brands in the industry' quite a while ago, but 500?? Worldwide?! That's insane, seriously. I mean I see no point in owning a DH bike (when my trail/enduro/whatever-that-pedals can do bikeparks), but I didn't think it's THAT bad.
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Primoz wrote:
With talk about Danny doing his own thing/team and Athertons buying a defunct company to start their own brand and Gwin basically investing in Intense, could we see someone setting up a team with non-frame-related sponsor (gear and outside sponsors) with a relatively big budget and get someone to design and build a bunch of one-off, proto style bikes and make dunno, a new frame specifically for each track or like Nico used to do it, designed around the world champs track?
Considering what Barelli said about the Grim Donut and the possible performance of it in Chile, it could be the 'unfair advantage' that nobody is taking advantage of right now. And it could take DH closer to the mythical (and currently far from it) 'F1 of cycling' status. Plus it's not such a daft idea with sales of DH bikes dwindling...
Karabuka wrote:
Well the bikes used to be more like that (remember khs going 29" on dh bike in ?2012, Barels moondrakers with HTA below 60° years ago, legendary honda g-cross, Vouillozes bikes etc.), many pros would ride custom bikes (to some extent) but now the difference with production bikes is almost nonexisting, especially with carbon molds and build in adjustability... The persionalization can now be found more in the suspension than geometries, these seem pretty dialed!
Nevertheless I'm really curious if there will be some development in the direction of Grim donut because if experienced world class rider said there is obvious potential in it would somebody consider it, or has downhill market simply shrunk so much that it just doesnt make sense to put so much effort into it? Anyway I still hope that a weirdo like Levy would change the industry with his joke :DPrimoz wrote:
That's hust the key, if it's shrunk to a point where it doesn't make sense to put out a bike on the market (a-la Yeti), but if it still has marketing potential, why not make a spaceship of a bike? A different bike for every rider on the team? Etc.?
Maybe recoup the development costs with a run of 20 'one-off' bikes, custom made for the buyer who can spec the geometry the way he pleases. Make a marketing thing out of it.
Mercedes, through sponsorships and prize money, paid 30 million for the F1 team in total in 2019. The supposed marketing effect it had having a dominanting team is supposedly in billions.
Point? You don't have to sell the race vehicles for the team/discipline to be a marketing success.
see my point above re: UCI rules. there's a 12 month timeframe you can race a bike without it being for sale to the public before you have to start selling it or stop racing it.
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Was just about to comment on that, isn't that only for road bikes? Because what makes a bike a prototype then? Minnaar's custom dropouts? Saracen's brake link? Etc.
Road bikes are limited I think in wheel size, they have to have a double diamond frame, the tube cross sections are defined to prevent them being too aero, there are limitations as to the position of the handlebars relating to some other point on the bike, etc. Some of these might be for time trial, but triathlon bikes are MUCH looser when it comes to regs and it shows, those things are wild.
EDIT: seems this covers all disciplines. But...
"Upon an order being placed, the order shall be
confirmed within 30 days and the relevant equipment shall be made available for delivery
within a further 90-day deadline. In addition, the retail price of the equipment shall be
publicly advertised, shall not render the equipment de facto unavailable to the general
public and shall not unreasonably exceed the market value for equipment of a similar
standard."
Nobody said anything about the number of bikes being sold. And what is unreasonable? If you have the chance to buy for example a fully custom DH bike, developed 'just for you'? Unno is selling 5k € carbon frames, to me a fully custom bike from a big brand for 10k is far from unreasonable, when only say 20 are existing in the world. Or if there are only 5?
Remember the GT class of Le Mans. There were two Nissan R390s made, one was sold to a Japanese Nissan collector, the other is in Nissans' warehouse. Same for Toyota GT-One, the sole example is in Cologne in the TMG factory. And the trunk that was required by the rules 'doubles' as the fuel tank (it's big enough to fit a suitcase, if you can get it in of course). There are something like 20 911 GT1 Straßenversions and/or AMG GTRs out there. Lancia supposedly showed half the cars of the Delta S4 to the FIA commissars in one location, took them to lunch and showed 'the other half' in another location. Peugot supposedly doctored the pictures showing the ~300 cars they needed for the 205 T16 to be valid for racing. BMW made 3 M3 GTRs (E46 version with a racing V8 engine) where allt three are also supposedly in Munich in one of the cellars. And so on. In motoracing this is called a homologation special 
I can assure you, I have no need for a DH bike, but a homologation special? Well that's damn interesting!
The 303-DH bikes from Yeti are still pure porn just because they have rails
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Primoz wrote:
Was just about to comment on that, isn't that only for road bikes? Because what makes a bike a prototype then? Minnaar's custom dropouts? Saracen's brake link? Etc.
Road bikes are limited I think in wheel size, they have to have a double diamond frame, the tube cross sections are defined to prevent them being too aero, there are limitations as to the position of the handlebars relating to some other point on the bike, etc. Some of these might be for time trial, but triathlon bikes are MUCH looser when it comes to regs and it shows, those things are wild.
EDIT: seems this covers all disciplines. But...
"Upon an order being placed, the order shall be
confirmed within 30 days and the relevant equipment shall be made available for delivery
within a further 90-day deadline. In addition, the retail price of the equipment shall be
publicly advertised, shall not render the equipment de facto unavailable to the general
public and shall not unreasonably exceed the market value for equipment of a similar
standard."
Nobody said anything about the number of bikes being sold. And what is unreasonable? If you have the chance to buy for example a fully custom DH bike, developed 'just for you'? Unno is selling 5k € carbon frames, to me a fully custom bike from a big brand for 10k is far from unreasonable, when only say 20 are existing in the world. Or if there are only 5?
Remember the GT class of Le Mans. There were two Nissan R390s made, one was sold to a Japanese Nissan collector, the other is in Nissans' warehouse. Same for Toyota GT-One, the sole example is in Cologne in the TMG factory. And the trunk that was required by the rules 'doubles' as the fuel tank (it's big enough to fit a suitcase, if you can get it in of course). There are something like 20 911 GT1 Straßenversions and/or AMG GTRs out there. Lancia supposedly showed half the cars of the Delta S4 to the FIA commissars in one location, took them to lunch and showed 'the other half' in another location. Peugot supposedly doctored the pictures showing the ~300 cars they needed for the 205 T16 to be valid for racing. BMW made 3 M3 GTRs (E46 version with a racing V8 engine) where allt three are also supposedly in Munich in one of the cellars. And so on. In motoracing this is called a homologation special
I can assure you, I have no need for a DH bike, but a homologation special? Well that's damn interesting!
The 303-DH bikes from Yeti are still pure porn just because they have rails
no, that's from the general organization section of the regulations, so it applies to all cycling disciplines (including BMX and trials).
regarding things like custom links, dropouts, etc - the regulations aren't explicitly clear about that, but i would venture a guess there's some leeway there as those are being used on frames that are commercially available - as opposed to c'dale bike which was a full prototype. and some of these items are to adjust the sizing of the bike itself (for taller guys like Greg), it may be implied that size variations are allowed as long as its a commercially available model. for things like the links to adjust suspension rates, that may still fall under the prototype provision.
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forgot to add: for things like links, dropouts, floating brakes, its definitely a gray area.
also - i wonder how they initially handled the Atherton bikes brand since a lot of those are custom, but the same customizations are now commercially available for sale.
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Well if a link is a proto, the dropouts are too. Gray area is a good point, after all, Bruni was riding proto brake levers for quite a while too.
As for Atherton bikes, forget the racing, what I'm wondering is how can they sell them all custom like that. How do they get all the ISO/EN/CE certification when it's possible for not even 2 bikes to be the same?
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Primoz wrote:
Well if a link is a proto, the dropouts are too. Gray area is a good point, after all, Bruni was riding proto brake levers for quite a while too.
As for Atherton bikes, forget the racing, what I'm wondering is how can they sell them all custom like that. How do they get all the ISO/EN/CE certification when it's possible for not even 2 bikes to be the same?
in my line of work a common approach that's utilized is called bookending - we'll test/validate at the lower & upper limits of pertinent product features/parameters (such as geometry & size) - ie the worst cases - and rationalize not having to test the sizes in between based on having tested the lower and upper extremes. this is approach is commonly accepted by regulatory bodies and standards organizations (like ISO, etc).
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danposs86 wrote:
I like how people are speculating a move to Orange because he said "the futures bright" haha
stoic_machine wrote:
Could be a new SUNN DH bike..... The sun is pretty bright.
andrew.macnaughton wrote:
what about Radon?
And then 6 months later he decides racing isn’t for him?
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Back to back to back World Cups/Worlds and now 2021 team rumours. Yeaaahh.
This year finally delivering some mtb goodness
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We haven't seen any Haro or Schwinn or Iron Horse or Honda or {insert random brand} team rumors yet. 
Besides, it's only been 3 pages. 
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Primoz wrote:
Urlpls. Seriously. There was talk of 50 enduro bikes for every DH bikes sold from 'one of the big brands in the industry' quite a while ago, but 500?? Worldwide?! That's insane, seriously. I mean I see no point in owning a DH bike (when my trail/enduro/whatever-that-pedals can do bikeparks), but I didn't think it's THAT bad.
Fir a lot of people, that Enduro bike is a one bike quiver... DH bikes are a small niche in a niche market..
I would guess that 500 to 1 ratio is off, too... I bet it's even more..
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It was 50 to 1 and it was a few years ago, the 500 number is a total sales number for all (DH) bikes in a year. That ratio would make 25000 bikes in a year, which is far from enough trail bikes sold for a brand like Specialized.
Boy I really want to see some concrete numbers regarding this, this is way too unsure and the numbers too wild to take it at face value...
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BMX Legend Nigel Sylvester has officially signed with Specialized... will he race an EWS or World Cup? Throw some bar spins at a Crankworx?! Only time will tell
https://www.instagram.com/p/CGXs_BJnkDo/?igshid=cn9xdjmir1va
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Wow, Warner just threw some rumor bombs on the Maribor WC stream, Vergier off syndicate and to Trek, Willson might not even stay with Trek and Hart to "square" brand, sounds like polygon. Said that during the Mark Wallaces run if somebody wants to be sure!
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Karabuka wrote:
Wow, Warner just threw some rumor bombs on the Maribor WC stream, Vergier off syndicate and to Trek, Willson might not even stay with Trek and Hart to "square" brand, sounds like polygon. Said that during the Mark Wallaces run if somebody wants to be sure!
Square brand could also be cube
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bermslapper69 wrote:
Square brand could also be cube
Damn, you are right... I feel like cube really wants to do well in DH and while Atwill is one of my overall favorite riders with amazing skills, the race results are simply not there...
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Karabuka wrote:
Wow, Warner just threw some rumor bombs on the Maribor WC stream, Vergier off syndicate and to Trek, Willson might not even stay with Trek and Hart to "square" brand, sounds like polygon. Said that during the Mark Wallaces run if somebody wants to be sure!
bermslapper69 wrote:
Square brand could also be cube
Karabuka wrote:
Damn, you are right... I feel like cube really wants to do well in DH and while Atwill is one of my overall favorite riders with amazing skills, the race results are simply not there...
Cube would probably give everthing to get rid off the image they currently have, aka, bikes for Joeys; bling components, bad kinematics, bad geometry, poor quality. As long as any of the last 3 will not change, and they will not, as they are cheap effs and go all in for profit, only the mentally challenged riders will go for this brand.
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Karabuka wrote:
Wow, Warner just threw some rumor bombs on the Maribor WC stream, Vergier off syndicate and to Trek, Willson might not even stay with Trek and Hart to "square" brand, sounds like polygon. Said that during the Mark Wallaces run if somebody wants to be sure!
Damn. Surprising. Loris seemed to be going well and and vibing well with the Syndicate. Trek must be dropping a big bag
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MPH24 wrote:
Damn. Surprising. Loris seemed to be going well and and vibing well with the Syndicate. Trek must be dropping a big bag
I thought the same but then remembered that he left Lapierre to get out from under Bruni's shadow. If Minnaar hasn't made plans to retire I can see Vergier wanting to move somewhere he can be top dog.
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bermslapper69 wrote:
Square brand could also be cube
Karabuka wrote:
Damn, you are right... I feel like cube really wants to do well in DH and while Atwill is one of my overall favorite riders with amazing skills, the race results are simply not there...
EugenM wrote:
Cube would probably give everthing to get rid off the image they currently have, aka, bikes for Joeys; bling components, bad kinematics, bad geometry, poor quality. As long as any of the last 3 will not change, and they will not, as they are cheap effs and go all in for profit, only the mentally challenged riders will go for this brand.
Did they kick your dog or kiss your girl or something lol. Your just all hate all the time.
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Karabuka wrote:
Damn, you are right... I feel like cube really wants to do well in DH and while Atwill is one of my overall favorite riders with amazing skills, the race results are simply not there...
EugenM wrote:
Cube would probably give everthing to get rid off the image they currently have, aka, bikes for Joeys; bling components, bad kinematics, bad geometry, poor quality. As long as any of the last 3 will not change, and they will not, as they are cheap effs and go all in for profit, only the mentally challenged riders will go for this brand.
metadave wrote:
Did they kick your dog or kiss your girl or something lol. Your just all hate all the time.
My love for Cube is endless! 
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Karabuka wrote:
Wow, Warner just threw some rumor bombs on the Maribor WC stream, Vergier off syndicate and to Trek, Willson might not even stay with Trek and Hart to "square" brand, sounds like polygon. Said that during the Mark Wallaces run if somebody wants to be sure!
But how will loris annoy jordi? Trek is on Rockshox so no jordi 
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Tbh I don’t see Loris leaving SCS, I think Rob is messing with us. From team videos looks like they have a lot of fun together. The bike works great for Loris and now they have the mullet...And like Philip said: Trek is on RockShox and Loris and Jordi are good friends ( I think only Jordi can interpret the feedback from Loris ) )
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Well if Loris has decided to move on, I hope he hasn’t finalised his fees...... because after a run like that, he worth big bucks! #pro#doe#yo
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Vergier on Trek, Hart to Cube in 2021, just waiting on the press releases.
Hart has wanted out of Saracen for a long time.
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Wilson off Trek would be an interesting move.. Maybe that talk started be he won Worlds... That win would almost definitely start new negotiations unless he already signed with someone else.. I think Trek might step up on the paycheck to keep the stripes... If the bring in Loris too, it could be an indication that Trek is getting serious about getting some DH wins..
