Some of you are taking this out of context - I don't mean a frame should be $300 from the local car shop. I'm saying whatever...
Some of you are taking this out of context - I don't mean a frame should be $300 from the local car shop. I'm saying whatever expertise or warranty allowance involved, it's hard to justify a $1500+ usd steel hardtail frame, especially when there's FS frames AND TI hardtail frames for that price. My carshop example was a bad one I'll admit that. Actually this becomes a question in itself and I'd be happy if y'all can educate me - what makes a steel hardtail worth so much? Just for context - there's a norco optic frame on sale at Jenson for sub $1200, I got my Turner scrub TI frame last BF for $1100, and the highly praised banshee paradox v3 frame is available for $700. What makes your "boutique" steel frames better than any of the above? It's not going to outlast a TI frame, it's not going to be as comfortable as a FS, and it's not as cheap as any of the above.
As others have said, very few custom frame builders are getting rich out of their endeavours. It may be hard for YOU to justify the cost, but for someone wanting to go down the road of buying one of these bikes the value will be there for them and they will be able to justify spending that amount. No one is forcing people to buy these bikes and I for one am glad the option exists. I used to own a steel hardtail built by Swarf Cycles and it was night and day a better product, both in build quality and ride quality, than the mass produced steel frame from Orange that I'd owned previously.
What do you want, frame builders working for below minimum wage to meet your idea of what is and isn't good value?
Not sure the muffler shop knows which wall thickness or tubeset to spec on a downtube vs. chainstays, either
I don't know, I got a pretty sick frame when I was at Jiffy Lube last week getting my oil changed...
On a serious tip... I think it's about supporting the little guy, knowing a guy sweat over welding YOUR personalized one-off frame, that feels unique. On paper is there higher real market value compared to the same frame from Trek, no. But, different things have different value for each of us.
Some of you are taking this out of context - I don't mean a frame should be $300 from the local car shop. I'm saying whatever...
Some of you are taking this out of context - I don't mean a frame should be $300 from the local car shop. I'm saying whatever expertise or warranty allowance involved, it's hard to justify a $1500+ usd steel hardtail frame, especially when there's FS frames AND TI hardtail frames for that price. My carshop example was a bad one I'll admit that. Actually this becomes a question in itself and I'd be happy if y'all can educate me - what makes a steel hardtail worth so much? Just for context - there's a norco optic frame on sale at Jenson for sub $1200, I got my Turner scrub TI frame last BF for $1100, and the highly praised banshee paradox v3 frame is available for $700. What makes your "boutique" steel frames better than any of the above? It's not going to outlast a TI frame, it's not going to be as comfortable as a FS, and it's not as cheap as any of the above.
A $1500+ small batch steel hardtail frame,
a $1200 Norco Optic frame,
a $1100 Turner Scrub TI frame,
and a $700 Banshee Paradox V3 frame.
All of these frames have objectively different ride qualities, and many more subjective differences. You can decide to value them however you like. The market has decided to rank their value in this order. Also see: wine, collector's cars, fashion, cigars, concert tickets, art. What's the correct value for any of these things? If a frog had pockets, what would it carry in them?
Some of you are taking this out of context - I don't mean a frame should be $300 from the local car shop. I'm saying whatever...
Some of you are taking this out of context - I don't mean a frame should be $300 from the local car shop. I'm saying whatever expertise or warranty allowance involved, it's hard to justify a $1500+ usd steel hardtail frame, especially when there's FS frames AND TI hardtail frames for that price. My carshop example was a bad one I'll admit that. Actually this becomes a question in itself and I'd be happy if y'all can educate me - what makes a steel hardtail worth so much? Just for context - there's a norco optic frame on sale at Jenson for sub $1200, I got my Turner scrub TI frame last BF for $1100, and the highly praised banshee paradox v3 frame is available for $700. What makes your "boutique" steel frames better than any of the above? It's not going to outlast a TI frame, it's not going to be as comfortable as a FS, and it's not as cheap as any of the above.
A $1500+ small batch steel hardtail frame,a $1200 Norco Optic frame,a $1100 Turner Scrub TI frame,and a $700 Banshee Paradox V3 frame.All of these frames have...
A $1500+ small batch steel hardtail frame,
a $1200 Norco Optic frame,
a $1100 Turner Scrub TI frame,
and a $700 Banshee Paradox V3 frame.
All of these frames have objectively different ride qualities, and many more subjective differences. You can decide to value them however you like. The market has decided to rank their value in this order. Also see: wine, collector's cars, fashion, cigars, concert tickets, art. What's the correct value for any of these things? If a frog had pockets, what would it carry in them?
Well now Im just thinking about a cute frog with pockets. Thats pretty valuable in my opinion.
Edit: Vital, I saw your email about the cyber Monday deals and I was browsing the Vital clothing, can we get an “Everything is a Crab Bike” shirt?
Some of you are taking this out of context - I don't mean a frame should be $300 from the local car shop. I'm saying whatever...
Some of you are taking this out of context - I don't mean a frame should be $300 from the local car shop. I'm saying whatever expertise or warranty allowance involved, it's hard to justify a $1500+ usd steel hardtail frame, especially when there's FS frames AND TI hardtail frames for that price. My carshop example was a bad one I'll admit that. Actually this becomes a question in itself and I'd be happy if y'all can educate me - what makes a steel hardtail worth so much? Just for context - there's a norco optic frame on sale at Jenson for sub $1200, I got my Turner scrub TI frame last BF for $1100, and the highly praised banshee paradox v3 frame is available for $700. What makes your "boutique" steel frames better than any of the above? It's not going to outlast a TI frame, it's not going to be as comfortable as a FS, and it's not as cheap as any of the above.
Labour is always a huge chunk of cost - it will easily take a half a day for a very good builder to produce a frame but that requires expensive machines which drives up the cost. Thin wall tubes need much better equipment for cutting and welding as well as the expertise required. Making stuff by hand is hard - anyone who's produced a part a frame themselves could see how tough it is to make money from it. But think of the opppsite view - a mass produced frame that is pumped out all day every day still costs maybe 50-75% as a bespoke one-off bike? The small time builder will have much lower profit too. I do agree that just because something is bespoke it isn't necessarily any better - but a good steel frame can be nicer than titanium and probably beter value- Ti is hard to work with so finding one that is both built well and rides good is easier said than done
I'm ready to be downvoted, but here's a hot take - I think most of the $1500+ steel HT frames from "boutique" builders are marketing BS...
I'm ready to be downvoted, but here's a hot take - I think most of the $1500+ steel HT frames from "boutique" builders are marketing BS. Titanium is hard to weld correctly, so I'll cut some slack for TI stuff. Al needs to be heat treated. But steel? Your local car shop/welder can penetrate weld. No amount of "custom geo" "bespoke" "compliance" "insert new hot word here" is going to make some welded steel tubes that was aligned on a jig be worth that amount of money. Reynold steel tubes cost 30-40 for a downtube/toptube section.Full suspension alignment is a lot harder so I won't comment on that.
I wonder what an Atherton steel hardtail would cost...
Lugged. 12 sizes. Rigorously tested. Perfect bottom bracket. Perfect headset. Peace of mind knowing that it's all made as well as possible. Lifetime warranty. Long term support. A little caché from the name.
$1500 is completely within the realm of possibilities there.
What is your hourly wage at your job? Should people who have a job they like be paid well enough to survive and retire?
Let's pretend this isn't a fully custom bike but a bike that'll be built boutique style but repeatedly.
6 hours to put together the frame if you're dialed and well-equipped. 10 hours if you're not.
200 hours designing it. 200 hours revising it. 200 hours testing it. 200 hours sourcing materials. 100 hours admin.
If there were no other factors involved and you were paying yourself $50/hour you'd have $45,500.
You're selling 31 frames at $1500 before you get there. Let's add the extra 180 hours for the additional 30 frames just to pay yourself. Moving target to match the hourly wage to the number of units manufactured and sold. So now we actually have to sell more like 37 frames to hit that $50/hour when you factor in manufacturing time to hit that $50/hour. And that's considering every single cent of that $1500 frame purchase price goes directly into your pocket.
But that's not how that actually all shakes out. We haven't yet counted:
Paint.
Cost of materials.
Cost of equipment.
Cost of location.
Insurance.
Any permitting.
Any additional certification/safety testing required by local governance.
Accounting.
Lawyers to look over your contracts and make sure you're not stepping on someone else's trademarks.
Taxes.
...and probably other shit I'm forgetting about (we're ignoring marketing and graphic design because your builds are so perfect they sell themselves on word of mouth alone and there's a line of people waiting around the block every day just hoping to get their name on a list).
...and that assumes all of your customers pick up the frame from your shop so you don't have to spend time or money shipping anything.
...and that's with no number attached to opportunity cost for all the time the spent learning to do it as well as is necessary to make a great bike.
Add on an extra 4 years of acquired knowledge to be able to translate a custom frame design into a great-riding bike.
It makes sense to me why it would be pretty expensive to be able make something super fuckin' sick!
Unless they're a dentist who happens to already be a very-high-level welder with all the required gear. Then for them it's just for funsies and they can just charge what their hourly is...which is closer to that $125 an hour...probably takes 'em 12 hours per frame...
Some of you are taking this out of context - I don't mean a frame should be $300 from the local car shop. I'm saying whatever...
Some of you are taking this out of context - I don't mean a frame should be $300 from the local car shop. I'm saying whatever expertise or warranty allowance involved, it's hard to justify a $1500+ usd steel hardtail frame, especially when there's FS frames AND TI hardtail frames for that price. My carshop example was a bad one I'll admit that. Actually this becomes a question in itself and I'd be happy if y'all can educate me - what makes a steel hardtail worth so much? Just for context - there's a norco optic frame on sale at Jenson for sub $1200, I got my Turner scrub TI frame last BF for $1100, and the highly praised banshee paradox v3 frame is available for $700. What makes your "boutique" steel frames better than any of the above? It's not going to outlast a TI frame, it's not going to be as comfortable as a FS, and it's not as cheap as any of the above.
You are listing sale prices of those other bikes. That is not what those frames are worth to the builders. But it does potentially reflect what the frames are worth to customers.
Hi there, Cam here from Outlier MTB. First and foremost, thank you all for your positive comments and support during our recent launch! I see that some...
Hi there, Cam here from Outlier MTB. First and foremost, thank you all for your positive comments and support during our recent launch!
I see that some of you have been discussing the actual pedal drop on this forum. There have been some misunderstandings that we would like to take some time to clear up. Our Pendulum pedal as it was released has 6mm of drop measured from the centre of the axle to the top of the platform. Most flat pedal platforms are somewhere between 5-7mm above the axle so our pedals are essentially ~12mm bellow your average pedal.
We did in fact test several different amounts of drop. We rode a 12mm version early on and it had more pedal strikes than we were comfortable with, and only a little bit more of that "cradle affect". I hope this helps clear things up a little! For more details visit our site, or DM us on instagram. Cheers!
Cam,Thanks for joining the fun!I am planning to try shorter cranks next season (hopping on the bandwagon). If I go from 170mm to 155mm and get...
Cam,
Thanks for joining the fun!
I am planning to try shorter cranks next season (hopping on the bandwagon). If I go from 170mm to 155mm and get the Pendulum pedals, would that not put my foot back within 3mm of were it was or am I totally not understanding the pedal’s foot position?
Hi Rugbyred, with a 155 crank length and pendulums, your extended position / saddle position would be 15mm higher from your cranks, and ~12mm lower from the...
Hi Rugbyred,
with a 155 crank length and pendulums, your extended position / saddle position would be 15mm higher from your cranks, and ~12mm lower from the pendulum pedals as compared to your average 12mm thick pedal for a total of a +3mm effect. When your pedals are level you'll still be 12mm lower than your standard pedal. The effects will be a net positive in my opinion, though I don't mind spinning smaller circles and having a bit more q-factor. Thanks for commenting!
Is that loss of pedal clearance 'worst case scenario' where the pedal is the thickest?
I do have a set on order, but the shortest cranks I could get were only 5mm shorter than what I currently run and pedal clearance is a never-ending issue where I ride.
It seems like bikes would ideally be optimized around your pedal design by having oddly high BB heights (aka Pole).
I'll say this as someone who owns a custom designed boutique full suspension steel bike made by a single Canadian guy which is rad:It seems like...
I'll say this as someone who owns a custom designed boutique full suspension steel bike made by a single Canadian guy which is rad:
It seems like your theory that for similar money you could go full custom is based upon the assumption that Trek wouldn't simply put this into production in Asia after prototyping it a bit more. If they do that I'm not sure why this would really be any more expensive than something comparable in their lineup. Other than stuff like Marino (which IMO, is not comparable), anything approaching this level of refinement is going to be significantly more expensive. Thinking of builders off the top of my head, a fully from Waltworks runs 4k USD, Daambuilt is like $4750 CAD, Wildwood's are over 6, and even Ferrum, once you get onto a platform with similar refinement to Trek's, is 3500 USD. That gives Trek quite a bit of breathing room, especially if they're done over in Asia. Further, none of the above-quoted prices include rear suspension.
@hitar - its funny you say the Claymore's leverage curve seems like the right application for a coil but that's exactly why I went air - I wanted more control over the ramp in the linear initial and mid stroke and also keep the bike similar but differentiated from my Aurum HSP.
@nico - I guess we'll have to see how the frame/bearings/linkages hold up!
Scale, simply scaleTrek doing a limited run of steel bikes, that they prototype, test, R&D, blah blah blah is going to be the same money as...
Scale, simply scale
Trek doing a limited run of steel bikes, that they prototype, test, R&D, blah blah blah is going to be the same money as a boutique builder, its not likely to be a mass market, asia produced bike, so theres no scaling available to eat the associated costs. Id be willing to bet, its one of the most expensive mountain bikes they make, if they put it out.
Granted it's a different market condition now than it was a few years ago but this is the mainstream company that made 1.5 generations of stache...
Granted it's a different market condition now than it was a few years ago but this is the mainstream company that made 1.5 generations of stache and 1120, and one generation of the full stache and CARBON farley ex (!), so they aren't afraid to commit to some weird stuff.
Honestly being different with a few half-steel trail bikes might be exactly what they need to differentiate themselves in a tight late 202X market.
As Earl puts it, if they take more or less exactly what they have now, including the existing rear ends, they can make these for a reasonable price. At that point scale isn't a huge issue but I think that with suspension and geometry so dialed right now, Trek could actually sell a decent bit of these in a 2-3 generation.
From what I heard, Trek might not exactly be in a financial position to try something "weird" right now...
Scale, simply scaleTrek doing a limited run of steel bikes, that they prototype, test, R&D, blah blah blah is going to be the same money as...
Scale, simply scale
Trek doing a limited run of steel bikes, that they prototype, test, R&D, blah blah blah is going to be the same money as a boutique builder, its not likely to be a mass market, asia produced bike, so theres no scaling available to eat the associated costs. Id be willing to bet, its one of the most expensive mountain bikes they make, if they put it out.
Granted it's a different market condition now than it was a few years ago but this is the mainstream company that made 1.5 generations of stache...
Granted it's a different market condition now than it was a few years ago but this is the mainstream company that made 1.5 generations of stache and 1120, and one generation of the full stache and CARBON farley ex (!), so they aren't afraid to commit to some weird stuff.
Honestly being different with a few half-steel trail bikes might be exactly what they need to differentiate themselves in a tight late 202X market.
As Earl puts it, if they take more or less exactly what they have now, including the existing rear ends, they can make these for a reasonable price. At that point scale isn't a huge issue but I think that with suspension and geometry so dialed right now, Trek could actually sell a decent bit of these in a 2-3 generation.
Hm. Has me thinking. Now this is some mouth breathing type of tin foil but I wonder if Trek is trying to do steel manufacturing to not be so indebted with Giant?
All for it. Now if other companies could move to steel Id be happy because the weight savings between carbon and steel compared to value is pretty shit if you ask me. May as well just go to a greener material.
The stuff I got told from our Trek rep was They doubled down during covid and orderd sh1t loads as at the time they were one of the only brands who took the risk and kept orders in of which they decided to up production. They've now been caught out and why they had major issues with the gen 4 rail production, being no alloys made.(this ruled out giant and Shimano as trek use Quest for alot of their carbon) However the soon to be released gen 5 is coming very very soon available in both carbon & alloy.
As the mention for NZ and Deals. There is some seriously discounted bikes there at the moment, I was just there for 2 weeks for business but will be returning in a few days for 5 months. however they had Bold bikes on special for over 60% off. 14k bikes for less than 5.5k. Giant bikes just wont sell because people Absolutely hate Giant NZ and how hard they are to deal with.
Cam,Thanks for joining the fun!I am planning to try shorter cranks next season (hopping on the bandwagon). If I go from 170mm to 155mm and get...
Cam,
Thanks for joining the fun!
I am planning to try shorter cranks next season (hopping on the bandwagon). If I go from 170mm to 155mm and get the Pendulum pedals, would that not put my foot back within 3mm of were it was or am I totally not understanding the pedal’s foot position?
Hi Rugbyred, with a 155 crank length and pendulums, your extended position / saddle position would be 15mm higher from your cranks, and ~12mm lower from the...
Hi Rugbyred,
with a 155 crank length and pendulums, your extended position / saddle position would be 15mm higher from your cranks, and ~12mm lower from the pendulum pedals as compared to your average 12mm thick pedal for a total of a +3mm effect. When your pedals are level you'll still be 12mm lower than your standard pedal. The effects will be a net positive in my opinion, though I don't mind spinning smaller circles and having a bit more q-factor. Thanks for commenting!
Is that loss of pedal clearance 'worst case scenario' where the pedal is the thickest?I do have a set on order, but the shortest cranks I...
Is that loss of pedal clearance 'worst case scenario' where the pedal is the thickest?
I do have a set on order, but the shortest cranks I could get were only 5mm shorter than what I currently run and pedal clearance is a never-ending issue where I ride.
It seems like bikes would ideally be optimized around your pedal design by having oddly high BB heights (aka Pole).
Thanks!
Did anyone even mention pedal clearance in the posts you quoted?
But yes, drop pedals could increase BB height which would also improve kinematics or at least bring 29ers closer to what we had on 26" bikes.
Seeing as the big Ali E got their hands on the last one, it was certainly time to release an updated version. I know its seemingly inevitable but it probably drives the little guys to keep making products in some capacity.
Interesting to hear about what Trek reps are telling people these days. On my end of things I head Trek bullied the ever loving shit out of suppliers to put them at the front of the line at the expense of many smaller manufacturer's orders. But the Trek rep certainly put better than that! I don't think they're unique or we'd have a lot of brands who didn't over order and therefore weren't in financial difficulties, and that simply does not appear to be the case.
Nobody posted a screen shot of the Forbidden e-bike top tube teaser shot Owen posted? I didn't screen shot it to zoom in and see what drive unit dashboard was in the top tube.
Nobody posted a screen shot of the Forbidden e-bike top tube teaser shot Owen posted? I didn't screen shot it to zoom in and see what...
Nobody posted a screen shot of the Forbidden e-bike top tube teaser shot Owen posted? I didn't screen shot it to zoom in and see what drive unit dashboard was in the top tube.
Did anyone even mention pedal clearance in the posts you quoted? But yes, drop pedals could increase BB height which would also improve kinematics or at least...
Did anyone even mention pedal clearance in the posts you quoted?
But yes, drop pedals could increase BB height which would also improve kinematics or at least bring 29ers closer to what we had on 26" bikes.
Do you mean that drop pedals being more prevalent would allow bikes to be designed with a higher bb? And what kinematics are you meaning? Like the arc radius when cornering? How quickly the bike can lean over?
Did anyone even mention pedal clearance in the posts you quoted? But yes, drop pedals could increase BB height which would also improve kinematics or at least...
Did anyone even mention pedal clearance in the posts you quoted?
But yes, drop pedals could increase BB height which would also improve kinematics or at least bring 29ers closer to what we had on 26" bikes.
Do you mean that drop pedals being more prevalent would allow bikes to be designed with a higher bb? And what kinematics are you meaning? Like...
Do you mean that drop pedals being more prevalent would allow bikes to be designed with a higher bb? And what kinematics are you meaning? Like the arc radius when cornering? How quickly the bike can lean over?
If you made two near identical bikes with identical anti-squat, but one had a 26" and the other had a 29" rear wheel, the 26" version will have a more rearward axle path and lower pedal kickback due to the bb (and therefore the main pivot/virtual pivot) being higher up with respect to the axle. It will also be more neutral under braking.
Some of you are taking this out of context - I don't mean a frame should be $300 from the local car shop. I'm saying whatever...
Some of you are taking this out of context - I don't mean a frame should be $300 from the local car shop. I'm saying whatever expertise or warranty allowance involved, it's hard to justify a $1500+ usd steel hardtail frame, especially when there's FS frames AND TI hardtail frames for that price. My carshop example was a bad one I'll admit that. Actually this becomes a question in itself and I'd be happy if y'all can educate me - what makes a steel hardtail worth so much? Just for context - there's a norco optic frame on sale at Jenson for sub $1200, I got my Turner scrub TI frame last BF for $1100, and the highly praised banshee paradox v3 frame is available for $700. What makes your "boutique" steel frames better than any of the above? It's not going to outlast a TI frame, it's not going to be as comfortable as a FS, and it's not as cheap as any of the above.
A $1500+ small batch steel hardtail frame,a $1200 Norco Optic frame,a $1100 Turner Scrub TI frame,and a $700 Banshee Paradox V3 frame.All of these frames have...
A $1500+ small batch steel hardtail frame,
a $1200 Norco Optic frame,
a $1100 Turner Scrub TI frame,
and a $700 Banshee Paradox V3 frame.
All of these frames have objectively different ride qualities, and many more subjective differences. You can decide to value them however you like. The market has decided to rank their value in this order. Also see: wine, collector's cars, fashion, cigars, concert tickets, art. What's the correct value for any of these things? If a frog had pockets, what would it carry in them?
I'll be honest, I was a little embarassed that @LePigPen and I had some silly comments, which turned into more silliness about steel vs, carbon, vs blah blah blah.......Until I read your jem about what would frongs carry in their pockets if they had em.......Absolute gold
Did anyone even mention pedal clearance in the posts you quoted? But yes, drop pedals could increase BB height which would also improve kinematics or at least...
Did anyone even mention pedal clearance in the posts you quoted?
But yes, drop pedals could increase BB height which would also improve kinematics or at least bring 29ers closer to what we had on 26" bikes.
Do you mean that drop pedals being more prevalent would allow bikes to be designed with a higher bb? And what kinematics are you meaning? Like...
Do you mean that drop pedals being more prevalent would allow bikes to be designed with a higher bb? And what kinematics are you meaning? Like the arc radius when cornering? How quickly the bike can lean over?
Just to confirm what has been said, yes, rearward axle path. It would be kinda like having an idler within your chainring to raise the chain by ~10 mm.
As others have said, very few custom frame builders are getting rich out of their endeavours. It may be hard for YOU to justify the cost, but for someone wanting to go down the road of buying one of these bikes the value will be there for them and they will be able to justify spending that amount. No one is forcing people to buy these bikes and I for one am glad the option exists. I used to own a steel hardtail built by Swarf Cycles and it was night and day a better product, both in build quality and ride quality, than the mass produced steel frame from Orange that I'd owned previously.
What do you want, frame builders working for below minimum wage to meet your idea of what is and isn't good value?
I don't know, I got a pretty sick frame when I was at Jiffy Lube last week getting my oil changed...
On a serious tip... I think it's about supporting the little guy, knowing a guy sweat over welding YOUR personalized one-off frame, that feels unique. On paper is there higher real market value compared to the same frame from Trek, no. But, different things have different value for each of us.
A $1500+ small batch steel hardtail frame,
a $1200 Norco Optic frame,
a $1100 Turner Scrub TI frame,
and a $700 Banshee Paradox V3 frame.
All of these frames have objectively different ride qualities, and many more subjective differences. You can decide to value them however you like. The market has decided to rank their value in this order. Also see: wine, collector's cars, fashion, cigars, concert tickets, art. What's the correct value for any of these things? If a frog had pockets, what would it carry in them?
Well now Im just thinking about a cute frog with pockets. Thats pretty valuable in my opinion.
Edit: Vital, I saw your email about the cyber Monday deals and I was browsing the Vital clothing, can we get an “Everything is a Crab Bike” shirt?
Labour is always a huge chunk of cost - it will easily take a half a day for a very good builder to produce a frame but that requires expensive machines which drives up the cost. Thin wall tubes need much better equipment for cutting and welding as well as the expertise required. Making stuff by hand is hard - anyone who's produced a part a frame themselves could see how tough it is to make money from it. But think of the opppsite view - a mass produced frame that is pumped out all day every day still costs maybe 50-75% as a bespoke one-off bike? The small time builder will have much lower profit too. I do agree that just because something is bespoke it isn't necessarily any better - but a good steel frame can be nicer than titanium and probably beter value- Ti is hard to work with so finding one that is both built well and rides good is easier said than done
A lot of car guys are smarter than the bike builders I have met
Something something about car guys making bikes. Did we already forget this eye sore?
Some more info about the new Sunn Radical enduro bike here on Vojomag :
https://www.vojomag.com/news/nouveaute-sunn-le-retour-du-radical/
Only in french but there's still a few data to share.
I wonder what an Atherton steel hardtail would cost...
Lugged. 12 sizes. Rigorously tested. Perfect bottom bracket. Perfect headset. Peace of mind knowing that it's all made as well as possible. Lifetime warranty. Long term support. A little caché from the name.
$1500 is completely within the realm of possibilities there.
What is your hourly wage at your job? Should people who have a job they like be paid well enough to survive and retire?
Let's pretend this isn't a fully custom bike but a bike that'll be built boutique style but repeatedly.
6 hours to put together the frame if you're dialed and well-equipped. 10 hours if you're not.
200 hours designing it. 200 hours revising it. 200 hours testing it. 200 hours sourcing materials. 100 hours admin.
If there were no other factors involved and you were paying yourself $50/hour you'd have $45,500.
You're selling 31 frames at $1500 before you get there. Let's add the extra 180 hours for the additional 30 frames just to pay yourself. Moving target to match the hourly wage to the number of units manufactured and sold. So now we actually have to sell more like 37 frames to hit that $50/hour when you factor in manufacturing time to hit that $50/hour. And that's considering every single cent of that $1500 frame purchase price goes directly into your pocket.
But that's not how that actually all shakes out. We haven't yet counted:
Paint.
Cost of materials.
Cost of equipment.
Cost of location.
Insurance.
Any permitting.
Any additional certification/safety testing required by local governance.
Accounting.
Lawyers to look over your contracts and make sure you're not stepping on someone else's trademarks.
Taxes.
...and probably other shit I'm forgetting about (we're ignoring marketing and graphic design because your builds are so perfect they sell themselves on word of mouth alone and there's a line of people waiting around the block every day just hoping to get their name on a list).
...and that assumes all of your customers pick up the frame from your shop so you don't have to spend time or money shipping anything.
...and that's with no number attached to opportunity cost for all the time the spent learning to do it as well as is necessary to make a great bike.
Add on an extra 4 years of acquired knowledge to be able to translate a custom frame design into a great-riding bike.
It makes sense to me why it would be pretty expensive to be able make something super fuckin' sick!
Unless they're a dentist who happens to already be a very-high-level welder with all the required gear. Then for them it's just for funsies and they can just charge what their hourly is...which is closer to that $125 an hour...probably takes 'em 12 hours per frame...
You are listing sale prices of those other bikes. That is not what those frames are worth to the builders. But it does potentially reflect what the frames are worth to customers.
Is that loss of pedal clearance 'worst case scenario' where the pedal is the thickest?
I do have a set on order, but the shortest cranks I could get were only 5mm shorter than what I currently run and pedal clearance is a never-ending issue where I ride.
It seems like bikes would ideally be optimized around your pedal design by having oddly high BB heights (aka Pole).
Thanks!
From what I heard, Trek might not exactly be in a financial position to try something "weird" right now...
Now, this tea, I want it spilled. All over the place. 😈
I heard Trek owes Giant and Shimano "hundreds of millions."
now i see why they ask a grand more for an xt kit vs gx t type in NZ, incredible
Hm. Has me thinking. Now this is some mouth breathing type of tin foil but I wonder if Trek is trying to do steel manufacturing to not be so indebted with Giant?
All for it. Now if other companies could move to steel Id be happy because the weight savings between carbon and steel compared to value is pretty shit if you ask me. May as well just go to a greener material.
Dunne just posted this on his story, new Summum getting closer to release
I’m hearing a new version of the Switchgrade is out with new features and a lower price…
https://www.aenomalyconstructs.com/
The stuff I got told from our Trek rep was They doubled down during covid and orderd sh1t loads as at the time they were one of the only brands who took the risk and kept orders in of which they decided to up production.
They've now been caught out and why they had major issues with the gen 4 rail production, being no alloys made.(this ruled out giant and Shimano as trek use Quest for alot of their carbon)
However the soon to be released gen 5 is coming very very soon available in both carbon & alloy.
As the mention for NZ and Deals. There is some seriously discounted bikes there at the moment, I was just there for 2 weeks for business but will be returning in a few days for 5 months. however they had Bold bikes on special for over 60% off. 14k bikes for less than 5.5k.
Giant bikes just wont sell because people Absolutely hate Giant NZ and how hard they are to deal with.
Did anyone even mention pedal clearance in the posts you quoted?
But yes, drop pedals could increase BB height which would also improve kinematics or at least bring 29ers closer to what we had on 26" bikes.
Seeing as the big Ali E got their hands on the last one, it was certainly time to release an updated version. I know its seemingly inevitable but it probably drives the little guys to keep making products in some capacity.
Interesting to hear about what Trek reps are telling people these days. On my end of things I head Trek bullied the ever loving shit out of suppliers to put them at the front of the line at the expense of many smaller manufacturer's orders. But the Trek rep certainly put better than that! I don't think they're unique or we'd have a lot of brands who didn't over order and therefore weren't in financial difficulties, and that simply does not appear to be the case.
Nobody posted a screen shot of the Forbidden e-bike top tube teaser shot Owen posted? I didn't screen shot it to zoom in and see what drive unit dashboard was in the top tube.
That thing has the same rocker link as my 2016 Ghost SLAMR POS build.
Looked like a fazua logo on the screen 👀
Do you mean that drop pedals being more prevalent would allow bikes to be designed with a higher bb? And what kinematics are you meaning? Like the arc radius when cornering? How quickly the bike can lean over?
More rearward axle path for one
More cowbell or something I dont know
If you made two near identical bikes with identical anti-squat, but one had a 26" and the other had a 29" rear wheel, the 26" version will have a more rearward axle path and lower pedal kickback due to the bb (and therefore the main pivot/virtual pivot) being higher up with respect to the axle. It will also be more neutral under braking.
I'll be honest, I was a little embarassed that @LePigPen and I had some silly comments, which turned into more silliness about steel vs, carbon, vs blah blah blah.......Until I read your jem about what would frongs carry in their pockets if they had em.......Absolute gold
Thank You so much.
friggin frogs with pockets!
Just to confirm what has been said, yes, rearward axle path. It would be kinda like having an idler within your chainring to raise the chain by ~10 mm.
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