MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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MrDuck
Posts
4
Joined
2/2/2021
Location
CA
11/4/2024 1:01pm
TimBud wrote:
 I can’t speak for the Uberbike fins but when I was guiding in the Alps my finned Shimano pads (sintered) would last at least twice as...

 I can’t speak for the Uberbike fins but when I was guiding in the Alps my finned Shimano pads (sintered) would last at least twice as long as the standard.

Prefomance was the same otherwise but the longevity hurt my wallet less despite the higher initial cost

veefour wrote:

Aren't the Shimano versions one piece though? Probably makes quite a difference.

Eae903 wrote:

The pad material is attached to the finned portion and that is attached to a separate backing plate on Shimano pads if I remember correctly. 

Correct - on Sintered pads it's [braking material][finned alloy plate][steel back plate], while resin is just [braking material][finned alloy back plate].

While it's anecdotal, I am very pleased with the Shimano finned pads. I don't know what the difference is in a compound between D02S, H03C and N04C. However, going from D02S to H03C has made a very noticeable difference in my brake pads' lifespan. I did make that change at a time I also singnificantly stepped up my riding, so pad wear may reflect that as well. 

I had a rattling pad issue once, solved it with spreading the spring a bit more. I'll probably pay more attention to it now that my bike is quieter overall.

I do like the Lewis' approach. Got a pair of the Uberbike pads on my commuter. The downside there is you need their own pads with thinner back plate, and as others have mentioned, the heat transfer will certainly suffer. However it'll still carry some heat away, looks neat and I'm all for keeping brakes consistent. As long as it's quiet, I'm into it. 

It's an interesting argument that one would like to see their brake pistons. I try to optimize bikes for on trail performance, and while ease of maintenance sure is a factor, how often do people inspect their pistons? If one side advances more than other is easily visible with fins, and only once in 12 years I've had my 4 piston brakes advance unevenly on one side, where seeing pistons would have been beneficial for diagnosis. 

1
1
ballz
Posts
32
Joined
7/30/2024
Location
Ouagadougou EH
11/4/2024 2:11pm
FaahkEet wrote:
The clear best solution is to just make water-cooled capable calipers. Water gets cycled through by a pump driven by a little baby pulley wheel on...

The clear best solution is to just make water-cooled capable calipers. Water gets cycled through by a pump driven by a little baby pulley wheel on the outside edge of the rotors.

Just connect them to a piss tube in your pants.

9
11/4/2024 3:23pm
FaahkEet wrote:
The clear best solution is to just make water-cooled capable calipers. Water gets cycled through by a pump driven by a little baby pulley wheel on...

The clear best solution is to just make water-cooled capable calipers. Water gets cycled through by a pump driven by a little baby pulley wheel on the outside edge of the rotors.

ballz wrote:

Just connect them to a piss tube in your pants.

This could have the added benefit of extra cooling conveniently being available at the same time as sudden, extreme braking events......

8
NicoZesty96
Posts
384
Joined
8/21/2014
Location
portogruaro, VE IT
11/4/2024 3:33pm

new Deviate E-bike on the other site, seems pretty good on paper!

2
1
Jotegr
Posts
113
Joined
6/28/2024
Location
Nakusp, BC CA
11/4/2024 3:45pm Edited Date/Time 11/4/2024 3:51pm

I appreciate how quickly commenters went for the Vala's throat. Not that we were any better with respect to the Vala/Crestline comparison. 
 

I am quite interested to see what Deviate does with the kinematics on this one. I'm a big fan of the Claymore and VPP seems like it could be quite a departure, while retaining the rearward axle path.  Deviate is typically rather open with their numbers and hopefully this is no exception. 

They shrunk the Large a bit which is probably wise, the Claymore in large is a 490mm reach, which I am on at 6' 2" rather than the gargantuan XL. 

Also, shout-out to the reach adjust headset - our favourite around here! Wonder if it's made by FSA?

5
1
noodlenosteeze
Posts
152
Joined
1/12/2023
Location
Magna, UT US
Fantasy
1675th
11/4/2024 4:04pm

new Deviate E-bike on the other site, seems pretty good on paper!

Glad it looks good on paper because it certainly isn't a looker otherwise.

24
nskerb
Posts
262
Joined
3/3/2020
Location
Kelso, WA US
11/4/2024 6:13pm
FaahkEet wrote:
The clear best solution is to just make water-cooled capable calipers. Water gets cycled through by a pump driven by a little baby pulley wheel on...

The clear best solution is to just make water-cooled capable calipers. Water gets cycled through by a pump driven by a little baby pulley wheel on the outside edge of the rotors.

Still less drag than a gearbox lol. 

4
nskerb
Posts
262
Joined
3/3/2020
Location
Kelso, WA US
11/4/2024 6:24pm

The life of the current gen range is super interesting. Came out of nowhere kinda received no end of praise but it was never going to be a bike that racers actually used in enduro. Super heavy and squishy. Maybe the existence of the shore at the same time hurt its overall sales since you could buy a squish monster from the same brand for cheaper. Probably tracks way better but if you're a "freeride" guy, do you care? Or do you just care that it has a lot of travel? 

 

Seems to have been a really good practice of "proof of concept" considering the DH rig they have is basically a mega range and there are some other guys that seem to copy it. It is just impressive that they brought a super developed dedicated long travel "enduro" bike to market that I would assume cost tons of money to develop just to kind of scrap it. I don't blame though because I have only ever seen one in person outside of a bike shop, owning one makes about as much sense as owning a DH bike for most people. 

12
Onawalk
Posts
301
Joined
7/5/2021
Location
CA
11/4/2024 8:38pm
nskerb wrote:
The life of the current gen range is super interesting. Came out of nowhere kinda received no end of praise but it was never going to...

The life of the current gen range is super interesting. Came out of nowhere kinda received no end of praise but it was never going to be a bike that racers actually used in enduro. Super heavy and squishy. Maybe the existence of the shore at the same time hurt its overall sales since you could buy a squish monster from the same brand for cheaper. Probably tracks way better but if you're a "freeride" guy, do you care? Or do you just care that it has a lot of travel? 

 

Seems to have been a really good practice of "proof of concept" considering the DH rig they have is basically a mega range and there are some other guys that seem to copy it. It is just impressive that they brought a super developed dedicated long travel "enduro" bike to market that I would assume cost tons of money to develop just to kind of scrap it. I don't blame though because I have only ever seen one in person outside of a bike shop, owning one makes about as much sense as owning a DH bike for most people. 

Interesting take,

No more niche than a Dreadnaught, or Slash, or Spire, or Claymore, or......Just a long travel "enduro/freeride" bike, that leans more towards DH performance than most.  When compared to what youd actually ride/race, its not really that much heavier, and for the additional performance, worth the penalty.

I went with a Spire, but the Range was a very, very close second.  Now I'm on a V2 Dreadnaught.....

See loads of em around here, ridden, raced, at the bike park.  Might be location dependant.

3
boozed
Posts
307
Joined
6/11/2019
Location
AU
11/4/2024 9:30pm Edited Date/Time 11/5/2024 12:07am

A friend of mine tested the Range at Falls Creek and wasn't blown away by it, compared to the brachyuran enduro bikes we normally ride, which gave us a bit of an idea of the kind of trails it probably needs to shine.  Falls Creek has a lot of elevation to work with and was a lot of fun, but none of the trails are extremely difficult or fast.

3
Jotegr
Posts
113
Joined
6/28/2024
Location
Nakusp, BC CA
11/4/2024 9:51pm Edited Date/Time 11/5/2024 9:36am

There's no shortage of Ranges in my neck of the woods, which makes sense because my neck of the woods is British Columbia, where there's plenty of Norco dealers and the current Range makes a bundle more sense for the average "enthusiast" level rider in a two bike quiver than the Shore or a bunch of other options. 

I don't think you're right in statement that it was "never going to be a bike racers actually used in enduro". Maybe it's not the bike that the pros use, but roll up to any enduro race in BC and you're guaranteed to see solid Range representation (or DH race - it was even raced on 1199 this year at Crankworx, a number of years after release and notwithstanding the fact it was never actually a DH bike). It's up there with megatowers right now, there is truly no shortage of these around. It's a great enduro bike for humans who need that extra 20mm of forgiveness and safety that many pros don't seem to require - although you could say this about virtually all of the "super enduro" bikes - the people at the sharpest end of the sport often select the all-mountain option. 

I agree the product cycle of the Range has been interesting. Three year single spec without a colou change, with the only difference being that after the first model year, they introduced the 1.1 frame with dramatically better shock clearance (why didn't they update the colours when they did this frame update?). 

But the Range was an important bike for Norco. Not so much a proof of concept, moreso a proof of the rebrand. You know, the new Norco thing on the downtube and the little split apart N thing instead of the shield(?) logo. External reps and brand managers were making the rounds to dealers, and one of their talking points was how they wanted to be seen as the Canadian Santa Cruz, reputation wise. They wanted to create a premium, excellent-riding, compelling, and mountain-focused lineup. They culled the majority of their non-mountain models, offering only an option or two per category outside the new bread and butter. Part of this rebrand was marketing, but another part was doubling the size of their engineering part (no joke, they doubled it!). 

Did the Range on its own make a ton of money? I don't know. I don't see their financials, but I kinda doubt it (have you seen how every size/spec option is available for like 40% off now? oops!). Am I convinced they lost money? Not necessarily. But what I can say is that I guarantee the positive press, impact, and unadultered brain-occupying the Range did in the months after release sold a bundle of Sights, Optics, Fluids and various VLT bikes. 

The Range was the flagship bike to go along with the rebrand. The category was super hot. The Range was the announcement into a competitive world that they were no longer the discount Canadian mountain bike brand. No, they're a serious contender for YOUR next mountain bike. It had to be good. 

 

19
11/5/2024 1:58am

To me the current Range has always screamed “money cause I’m top!!!” - all the raging attributes are present on it: carbon, high-pivot, long, low and slack, 29er, double-crown compatible, and last, but not least - it’s an enduro (more like a superenduro). Would be a mistake to change it, in my view! 

9
11/5/2024 6:19am

I love Norco but Canadian Santa Cruz is gonna be a stretch, and should they even shoot for that? $1,500 Fluids, flat bar gravel/commuter bikes and even a steel gravel bike. These are all awesome! I’ll prolly never sell my road bike (2018 Search with a dropper and flat bars) because it only cost $450 to begin with! But, part of the Santa Cruz brand is you can only have it on your downtube if you pony up. It's bling to some extent. (100% bling on the Vala with it being crab link)

The other aspects of Santa Cruz that Norco does not embody are quality and warranty ease. 2020 Sight VLT was the absolute worst quality bike I've had by a large margin.  (comparing to: Ibis, Transition, Santa Cruz, Specialized, Nukeproof) Maybe, (hopefully) their quality gone up in recent years. Their warranty department was really great when I broke the chainstays on that bike but that is NOT the experience I hear from others. I hear exclusively negative things about Norco's warranty. They have a looong way to go before they're percived as Transition or Santa Cruz are.

TL;DR: I've owned an XT level carbon Norco eeb and a $450 8sp gravel bike from Norco and the one that's still in my garage is the cheap gravel bike.

4
3
Jotegr
Posts
113
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Location
Nakusp, BC CA
11/5/2024 8:26am

I suspect "Canadian Santa Cruz" meant that they wanted to capture the brand's perception of value* and competence rather than "we're going to completely drop all our product offerings that aren't carbon mountain bikes and stop being one of Canada's main distributors". It certainly wasn't something they were saying publicly in any event. 

*value can mean more than "this thing sure is a bargain". 

6
ardor
Posts
68
Joined
10/30/2012
Location
CA
Fantasy
1831st
11/5/2024 8:32am
Jotegr wrote:
I suspect "Canadian Santa Cruz" meant that they wanted to capture the brand's perception of value* and competence rather than "we're going to completely drop all...

I suspect "Canadian Santa Cruz" meant that they wanted to capture the brand's perception of value* and competence rather than "we're going to completely drop all our product offerings that aren't carbon mountain bikes and stop being one of Canada's main distributors". It certainly wasn't something they were saying publicly in any event. 

*value can mean more than "this thing sure is a bargain". 

Nailed it!. My understanding is that this is exactly what they meant by the SC comparison. 

3
sprungmass
Posts
89
Joined
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Location
Calgary, AB CA
11/5/2024 9:29am Edited Date/Time 11/5/2024 9:29am

Did Specialized just break a new record of the most expensive MTB from a big box brand? The non-motorized version (SJ15) is $18,000 CAD

image 92
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noodlenosteeze
Posts
152
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Location
Magna, UT US
Fantasy
1675th
11/5/2024 10:17am Edited Date/Time 11/5/2024 10:20am
sprungmass wrote:
Did Specialized just break a new record of the most expensive MTB from a big box brand? The non-motorized version (SJ15) is $18,000 CAD

Did Specialized just break a new record of the most expensive MTB from a big box brand? The non-motorized version (SJ15) is $18,000 CAD

image 92

Insane pricing. They will sell the limited production they have though.

What makes me most upset by this is that it's still loaded with house brand components. Put some name brand wheels on the thing at least. 

Edit: Looks like only the saddle and wheels are house brand. Everything else is another brand. Still would like to see Enve, DT or I9 wheels though.

4
4
sethimus
Posts
259
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9/20/2014
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CH
Fantasy
2434th
11/5/2024 10:21am
sprungmass wrote:
Did Specialized just break a new record of the most expensive MTB from a big box brand? The non-motorized version (SJ15) is $18,000 CAD

Did Specialized just break a new record of the most expensive MTB from a big box brand? The non-motorized version (SJ15) is $18,000 CAD

image 92

must be your currency, same price around here for the top model 

2
Nobble
Posts
104
Joined
9/24/2010
Location
Santa Cruz, CA US
11/5/2024 10:36am Edited Date/Time 11/5/2024 10:38am
Insane pricing. They will sell the limited production they have though.What makes me most upset by this is that it's still loaded with house brand components...

Insane pricing. They will sell the limited production they have though.

What makes me most upset by this is that it's still loaded with house brand components. Put some name brand wheels on the thing at least. 

Edit: Looks like only the saddle and wheels are house brand. Everything else is another brand. Still would like to see Enve, DT or I9 wheels though.

The wheels are laced to DT 240 hubs though.


I just checked and it’s $15,500 USD. That’s a bit more than the Yeti or Santa Cruz offerings but I don’t think any of them are offering the Live Valve suspension.

1
1
TimBud
Posts
374
Joined
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Location
GB
Fantasy
875th
11/5/2024 10:43am

Yeah those Roval rims are pretty decent and backed by Specialized warranty. 

Their ally ones aren’t great though

5
sprungmass
Posts
89
Joined
3/1/2023
Location
Calgary, AB CA
11/5/2024 10:44am
Insane pricing. They will sell the limited production they have though.What makes me most upset by this is that it's still loaded with house brand components...

Insane pricing. They will sell the limited production they have though.

What makes me most upset by this is that it's still loaded with house brand components. Put some name brand wheels on the thing at least. 

Edit: Looks like only the saddle and wheels are house brand. Everything else is another brand. Still would like to see Enve, DT or I9 wheels though.

I own those Roval Traverse HD and they are actually very good! The ride quality compares to Crank Brothers Synthesis carbon wheels with different front and rear carbon layup. People usually scoff at house brand wheels but I have been very happy with the 3 sets of Rovals I have for the different bikes. DT hubs, DT spokes, good rim layup and solid warranty to back it all up. In fact I had a set of the much hyped WeAreOne Union which felt like wooden planks in comparison.

9
1
29
Posts
154
Joined
3/9/2020
Location
AT
11/5/2024 11:24am
sprungmass wrote:
Did Specialized just break a new record of the most expensive MTB from a big box brand? The non-motorized version (SJ15) is $18,000 CAD

Did Specialized just break a new record of the most expensive MTB from a big box brand? The non-motorized version (SJ15) is $18,000 CAD

image 92
Insane pricing. They will sell the limited production they have though.What makes me most upset by this is that it's still loaded with house brand components...

Insane pricing. They will sell the limited production they have though.

What makes me most upset by this is that it's still loaded with house brand components. Put some name brand wheels on the thing at least. 

Edit: Looks like only the saddle and wheels are house brand. Everything else is another brand. Still would like to see Enve, DT or I9 wheels though.

specialized saddles are some of the best. I know enough people who pick them over wtb, ergon etc

15
11/5/2024 11:37am

new Deviate E-bike on the other site, seems pretty good on paper!

Glad it looks good on paper because it certainly isn't a looker otherwise.

I actually dont mind it, and I normally despise bikes that look like they have been in a head on car accident

2
overbiked
Posts
8
Joined
10/23/2024
Location
Orem, UT US
11/5/2024 1:56pm
Packe777 wrote:

Thx for the info. I'm exactly your weight 93kg,  but with all the gear and kitted on top around 96-97kg. 

I've also got a set of LH4's currently w/ the Sram HS2 rotors. I absolutely love them, cant recommend them enough. I had code RSC's before them, and Magura MT7 pros before the codes, and the Lewis' are my favorite so far. Lever feel and power are amazing, value is second to none. With as cheap as they are I'd say go for it. 

As far as the cooling fins I'm to skinny to see a benefit from any brand's so I can't speak to that.

1
9
Jotegr
Posts
113
Joined
6/28/2024
Location
Nakusp, BC CA
11/5/2024 3:15pm Edited Date/Time 11/5/2024 3:44pm

new Deviate E-bike on the other site, seems pretty good on paper!

Glad it looks good on paper because it certainly isn't a looker otherwise.

I actually dont mind it, and I normally despise bikes that look like they have been in a head on car accident

I think there's an interesting discussion of function vs form with this bike. It's apparent from the comments (and comment voting) both here and on the other site that the looks are, shall we say, controversial. Deviate has demonstrably fallen on the function side by designing a bike that has all three of: 

1. a huge 800w downtube battery;

2. no knockblock/steering limiter and the ability to have the fork crowns pass under the frame; and

3. the ability to fit two water bottles in the front triangle, which (I believe) makes them unique in the long travel full suspension ebike market. 

The compromise is that, as noodle points out, it looks like someone drove it into the garage door or maybe hit it with a shovel. I don't think you can have all three of the above without that. Looking at the side profile, the only way I could see a no-kink design is by losing at least one of the above. Personally, I'd go for the straight downtube thing, Trek's knockblock and similar makes the most sense on ebikes where you have loads of expensive wires which don't really want to be pulled.... But could you still keep your reach adjust headset, if that were the case? 

5
Outlawed
Posts
16
Joined
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Location
Vancouver Island, BC CA
Fantasy
1435th
11/5/2024 7:50pm Edited Date/Time 11/5/2024 7:51pm
Jotegr wrote:
There's no shortage of Ranges in my neck of the woods, which makes sense because my neck of the woods is British Columbia, where there's plenty...

There's no shortage of Ranges in my neck of the woods, which makes sense because my neck of the woods is British Columbia, where there's plenty of Norco dealers and the current Range makes a bundle more sense for the average "enthusiast" level rider in a two bike quiver than the Shore or a bunch of other options. 

I don't think you're right in statement that it was "never going to be a bike racers actually used in enduro". Maybe it's not the bike that the pros use, but roll up to any enduro race in BC and you're guaranteed to see solid Range representation (or DH race - it was even raced on 1199 this year at Crankworx, a number of years after release and notwithstanding the fact it was never actually a DH bike). It's up there with megatowers right now, there is truly no shortage of these around. It's a great enduro bike for humans who need that extra 20mm of forgiveness and safety that many pros don't seem to require - although you could say this about virtually all of the "super enduro" bikes - the people at the sharpest end of the sport often select the all-mountain option. 

I agree the product cycle of the Range has been interesting. Three year single spec without a colou change, with the only difference being that after the first model year, they introduced the 1.1 frame with dramatically better shock clearance (why didn't they update the colours when they did this frame update?). 

But the Range was an important bike for Norco. Not so much a proof of concept, moreso a proof of the rebrand. You know, the new Norco thing on the downtube and the little split apart N thing instead of the shield(?) logo. External reps and brand managers were making the rounds to dealers, and one of their talking points was how they wanted to be seen as the Canadian Santa Cruz, reputation wise. They wanted to create a premium, excellent-riding, compelling, and mountain-focused lineup. They culled the majority of their non-mountain models, offering only an option or two per category outside the new bread and butter. Part of this rebrand was marketing, but another part was doubling the size of their engineering part (no joke, they doubled it!). 

Did the Range on its own make a ton of money? I don't know. I don't see their financials, but I kinda doubt it (have you seen how every size/spec option is available for like 40% off now? oops!). Am I convinced they lost money? Not necessarily. But what I can say is that I guarantee the positive press, impact, and unadultered brain-occupying the Range did in the months after release sold a bundle of Sights, Optics, Fluids and various VLT bikes. 

The Range was the flagship bike to go along with the rebrand. The category was super hot. The Range was the announcement into a competitive world that they were no longer the discount Canadian mountain bike brand. No, they're a serious contender for YOUR next mountain bike. It had to be good. 

 

Not to continue the conversation but I think the biggest issue with the Range's lifespan was the availability. My buddy was all over ordering one at launch but all three builds had up in the air ETA's that basically lead to him purchasing another bike. I want to say the local shop only saw a bottom spec size small over the course of half a year, not that I think this was a bike intended to be mass produced but the state of the world at that time did no favors for it.

1
Pete
Posts
28
Joined
7/31/2009
Location
Santa Cruz, CA US
11/5/2024 8:21pm
TimBud wrote:

Yeah those Roval rims are pretty decent and backed by Specialized warranty. 

Their ally ones aren’t great though

I had a pair of clearance carbon Rovals on my gravel bike that exploded when I got hit by a negligent driver a couple years ago. Specialized replaced them quickly with a brand new pair that I then sold to the Pro's Closet for nearly what I paid for them originally. I submitted them to the Pro's Closet on a whim rather than selling locally thinking why would anyone buy these wheels when their main selling point (imo) is the warranty to the original owner. I'm assuming TPC bought them to put them on a bike rather than selling them on their own but idk. 

The warranty is great, the spec is decent, and they're frequently on sale. Would buy again if I had the need.

3
1
nskerb
Posts
262
Joined
3/3/2020
Location
Kelso, WA US
11/5/2024 9:46pm
Onawalk wrote:
Interesting take,No more niche than a Dreadnaught, or Slash, or Spire, or Claymore, or......Just a long travel "enduro/freeride" bike, that leans more towards DH performance than...

Interesting take,

No more niche than a Dreadnaught, or Slash, or Spire, or Claymore, or......Just a long travel "enduro/freeride" bike, that leans more towards DH performance than most.  When compared to what youd actually ride/race, its not really that much heavier, and for the additional performance, worth the penalty.

I went with a Spire, but the Range was a very, very close second.  Now I'm on a V2 Dreadnaught.....

See loads of em around here, ridden, raced, at the bike park.  Might be location dependant.

I see what you're saying, But the spire is definitely not niche in my opinion, its just a big crab link. 

Dreddy or claymore come from smaller brands so according to my peanut brain they can do more interesting stuff with less risk. Slash is cool but still kind of basically a crab link HP??

I have not ridden any of them so I could just be totally out to lunch on this one, but it really seemed to me that the range was on the extreme end of descending focus and was a little bit of a dog as far as uphill performance is concerned. 

Like some of the comments after yours have talked about. The range seemed to be part of a big pivot for the brand and I think that is sick. When the Optic, Sight, and Range came out it was like woah these guys are doing the most. So much so that I demo'd and bought a sight. I'm a huge Norco fanboy now and will probably buy a new optic for my next bike. (Also bought my dad a low pivot optic when I bought my sight) Maybe I live in a weird dead zone because some comments have mentioned seeing Range's a lot, but I have only seen 2 ranges in person on the "trail" and both were at bike parks. I ride a lot in SW WA and NW Oregon. 

 

Long story long I'm stoked the range exists and I'd love to ride one but it seems way too gnarly to me for anything but shuttling. I think the "LT sight" is pretty good evidence that seems to be a common opinion. But also super stoked the direction that Norco is going, Their bikes are sick. 

5

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