MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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SteveClimber
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6/17/2024 11:57pm
Primoz wrote:
It's usually called a tuned mass damper. And therein lies the issue, in the tuned part. They usually have to be tuned for a certain frequency...

It's usually called a tuned mass damper. And therein lies the issue, in the tuned part. They usually have to be tuned for a certain frequency to achieve an effect, otherwise it won't do anything or even make things worse.

Yeah its something I've wanted to put some testing in to, but unless you have a specific resonant frequency you are needing to eliminate then it...

Yeah its something I've wanted to put some testing in to, but unless you have a specific resonant frequency you are needing to eliminate then it won't help (or make it worse)

 

They were made famous in everyones favourite birthplace of technology (F1), where tyre vibration was a real problem because the suspension is so stiff and the regulations normally specify a minimum tyre pressure (which would in theory help dramatically), they needed another way to deal with it. It could maybe benefit push bikes, but would need to be easily tuneable and also be sure that you aren't masking an issue that could have been fixed in a different way

Primoz wrote:
Derailing obviously... Renault used a TDM, yes. As far as I read into it, having the force on the tyre in F1 as constant as possible...

Derailing obviously... Renault used a TDM, yes. As far as I read into it, having the force on the tyre in F1 as constant as possible gives you the best grip, any spikes in the loads influence this. So they were looking for a platform that would be even more stable. The suspension is basically rock solid as it's there, primarily, to support the aero platform. In the olden days (13" wheels) the tyre was an essential part of the suspension, less so with the move to 18" wheels (the sidewall is smaller). It was never mentioned that the TDM tuned out the own frequency of the tyre, but it could be used because of that.

Anywho, the FIA outlawed it under the  'moveable aero devices' regulation at the time as on an F1 car technically only the unsprung components can move, but in reality they did not want to have cars with 25 kilo weights suspended in the nosecones. The lack of a TDM was later solved by McLaren who pioneered the inerter (which resists acceleration and effectively makes the sprung portion of the car, from the tyre standpoint, much heavier through it).

They also solved it with the FRIC hydraulic suspension that was also subsequently banned. F1 has a unique problem because they require such incredibly high stiffness in heave (the entire chassis going down relative to wheels) but are forbidden to connect the front and rear suspension together, because rules.

 

Somebody on here or on MTBR did a test of bolting an inerter to a rear shock mount and found the results, bad haha. 

Is there any real world applicated of a TMD in a high frequency non stable application like a mountain bike? I mostly know of them being used in buildings. Maybe high end boats use them for stability?

Primoz
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6/18/2024 12:06am Edited Date/Time 6/18/2024 12:06am

FRIC does a different thing, prevents roll in corners and pitch changes under braking and accelerating but otherwise frees up the suspension corners over bumps. Inverters (and tuned mass dampers) oppose acceleration while dampers oppose velocity. FRIC just tunes how that is achieved. Springs oppose displacement obviously. And to have it stiff in heave they use third springs.

As for inerters on bikes, it was actually @Dave_Camp .

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1
6/18/2024 8:49am
Seagrave7 wrote:
Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new...

Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new product announcement this am? 

 

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/chisel-comp-shimano/p/4274028?color=5…

Escape Collective has some photos of it from a trade show in Australia. Appears to be an alloy clone of the Epic. Thought the price might be a little lower.

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Grave
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6/18/2024 8:56am
Seagrave7 wrote:
Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new...

Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new product announcement this am? 

 

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/chisel-comp-shimano/p/4274028?color=5…

Escape Collective has some photos of it from a trade show in Australia. Appears to be an alloy clone of the Epic. Thought the price might...

Escape Collective has some photos of it from a trade show in Australia. Appears to be an alloy clone of the Epic. Thought the price might be a little lower.

It looks like they dropped the low end carbon models. The lowest price is 5000 now.

A little over 28 pounds for a medium frame seems pretty good though.

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iceman2058
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6/18/2024 9:08am
Seagrave7 wrote:
Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new...

Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new product announcement this am? 

 

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/chisel-comp-shimano/p/4274028?color=5…

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FullSend
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6/18/2024 9:43am

Apropos Specialized:

Today, my friend, who's one of the editors of a German mountainbike magazine told me that they had just received their review sample of the new Stumpjumper.

New Stumpy must be right around the corner now.

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All-MTN-MTB
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6/18/2024 10:03am
Seagrave7 wrote:
Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new...

Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new product announcement this am? 

 

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/chisel-comp-shimano/p/4274028?color=5…

iceman2058 wrote:

Is it just me, or does an aluminum flex stay seem sketchy? I’m sure it’s designed to last fine for the typical 3-5 year ownership of a new frame, but it’s certainly not a bike I’d buy second hand given aluminum’s poor fatigue strength. It would be cool if you could swap the carbon rear triangle from an epic to extend the life of the bike instead of just having a cheap, disposable frame. As is, it seems like the soda can of MTB frames tho - light, cheap, and disposable. 

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FullSend
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6/18/2024 10:33am
Seagrave7 wrote:
Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new...

Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new product announcement this am? 

 

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/chisel-comp-shimano/p/4274028?color=5…

iceman2058 wrote:
Is it just me, or does an aluminum flex stay seem sketchy? I’m sure it’s designed to last fine for the typical 3-5 year ownership of...

Is it just me, or does an aluminum flex stay seem sketchy? I’m sure it’s designed to last fine for the typical 3-5 year ownership of a new frame, but it’s certainly not a bike I’d buy second hand given aluminum’s poor fatigue strength. It would be cool if you could swap the carbon rear triangle from an epic to extend the life of the bike instead of just having a cheap, disposable frame. As is, it seems like the soda can of MTB frames tho - light, cheap, and disposable. 

Not sketchy at all I've been told. The relatively low Young's modulus of aluminium let's you get away with quite a bit of deflection on an aluminium structure without any major impacts on fatigue. Fatigue is apparently an incredibly easy problem to fix from a design perspective; just add a little more material and you're good.

Bikes these days undergo excessive testing, both through FEM and on a test bench. Modern bikes are designed to withstand hundreds of thousands of full load cycles and in reality, you'll never even get anywhere close to riding your bike that much.

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6/18/2024 11:05am
Is it just me, or does an aluminum flex stay seem sketchy? I’m sure it’s designed to last fine for the typical 3-5 year ownership of...

Is it just me, or does an aluminum flex stay seem sketchy? I’m sure it’s designed to last fine for the typical 3-5 year ownership of a new frame, but it’s certainly not a bike I’d buy second hand given aluminum’s poor fatigue strength. It would be cool if you could swap the carbon rear triangle from an epic to extend the life of the bike instead of just having a cheap, disposable frame. As is, it seems like the soda can of MTB frames tho - light, cheap, and disposable. 

I assume this frame was made by Merida, part owners of specialized - Merida have the alloy flex stay thing figured out, their One-Sixty models are tough as heck - rated for heavy bike park use with a lifetime warranty.

Speaking of ownership times, i've not had an alloy frame last more than a year until I got an alloy Merida. 

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jeff.brines
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6/18/2024 11:14am Edited Date/Time 6/18/2024 11:16am
Seagrave7 wrote:
Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new...

Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new product announcement this am? 

 

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/chisel-comp-shimano/p/4274028?color=5…

iceman2058 wrote:
Is it just me, or does an aluminum flex stay seem sketchy? I’m sure it’s designed to last fine for the typical 3-5 year ownership of...

Is it just me, or does an aluminum flex stay seem sketchy? I’m sure it’s designed to last fine for the typical 3-5 year ownership of a new frame, but it’s certainly not a bike I’d buy second hand given aluminum’s poor fatigue strength. It would be cool if you could swap the carbon rear triangle from an epic to extend the life of the bike instead of just having a cheap, disposable frame. As is, it seems like the soda can of MTB frames tho - light, cheap, and disposable. 

Thankfully someone else beat me to this. 

I could add a lot more about how flex is inherent to any design, even if you don't "feel" it, and that aluminum can be made to work just fine depending on a myriad of factors. 

But instead, I just wanted an excuse to post an OG flex stay alloy bike (that worked) 

 

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Onawalk
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6/18/2024 11:17am
Seagrave7 wrote:
Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new...

Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new product announcement this am? 

 

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/chisel-comp-shimano/p/4274028?color=5…

iceman2058 wrote:
Is it just me, or does an aluminum flex stay seem sketchy? I’m sure it’s designed to last fine for the typical 3-5 year ownership of...

Is it just me, or does an aluminum flex stay seem sketchy? I’m sure it’s designed to last fine for the typical 3-5 year ownership of a new frame, but it’s certainly not a bike I’d buy second hand given aluminum’s poor fatigue strength. It would be cool if you could swap the carbon rear triangle from an epic to extend the life of the bike instead of just having a cheap, disposable frame. As is, it seems like the soda can of MTB frames tho - light, cheap, and disposable. 

Do you have alu h-bars on your bike?

You'll be just fine

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Mwood
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6/18/2024 12:10pm

Aluminum bikes are not disposable, they are recyclable. Carbon bikes are disposable and not recyclable. 

I heard Big S kept their aluminum bike team when some of them carbon folks got laid off. The return of aluminum is here! 

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thresh
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6/18/2024 12:45pm
iceman2058 wrote:
Is it just me, or does an aluminum flex stay seem sketchy? I’m sure it’s designed to last fine for the typical 3-5 year ownership of...

Is it just me, or does an aluminum flex stay seem sketchy? I’m sure it’s designed to last fine for the typical 3-5 year ownership of a new frame, but it’s certainly not a bike I’d buy second hand given aluminum’s poor fatigue strength. It would be cool if you could swap the carbon rear triangle from an epic to extend the life of the bike instead of just having a cheap, disposable frame. As is, it seems like the soda can of MTB frames tho - light, cheap, and disposable. 

Thankfully someone else beat me to this.  I could add a lot more about how flex is inherent to any design, even if you don't "feel"...

Thankfully someone else beat me to this. 

I could add a lot more about how flex is inherent to any design, even if you don't "feel" it, and that aluminum can be made to work just fine depending on a myriad of factors. 

But instead, I just wanted an excuse to post an OG flex stay alloy bike (that worked) 

 

Huh, and I though Cannondale Scalpels were first to the party, but alas - indeed it is Gary Fisher.  Mind blown!

TimBud
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6/18/2024 12:59pm

Where does the myth come from that carbon is not recyclable? Just because very few do it does not make it impossible.

As soon as there is a consumer demand for products made from it, “they” will find a way to make the processes more efficient and cost effective.

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markb2392
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6/18/2024 1:27pm
TimBud wrote:
Where does the myth come from that carbon is not recyclable? Just because very few do it does not make it impossible. As soon as there...

Where does the myth come from that carbon is not recyclable? Just because very few do it does not make it impossible.

As soon as there is a consumer demand for products made from it, “they” will find a way to make the processes more efficient and cost effective.

Can of worms opened!

Yes it's recyclable, but not into its original form. Can use it in chopped strand stuff. Resin has to be burnt. Very expensive. No-one really does it.

Ally can be, but uses shit loads of energy to extract in raw form.

Swings and roundabouts. No-one ever quantifies the environmental damage. Chose your material and be a dick about it Laughing

If you really cared you'd hang onto your current bike until it brakes and not buy another one!

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JVP
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6/18/2024 1:27pm
Mwood wrote:
Aluminum bikes are not disposable, they are recyclable. Carbon bikes are disposable and not recyclable.  I heard Big S kept their aluminum bike team when some...

Aluminum bikes are not disposable, they are recyclable. Carbon bikes are disposable and not recyclable. 

I heard Big S kept their aluminum bike team when some of them carbon folks got laid off. The return of aluminum is here! 

Sure, but carbon is repairable. I'm one of those that wouldn't buy an aluminum flex stay bike, or really any aluminum bike that's on the lighter side of things. I likely have anchoring bias from breaking so many aluminum bikes over the years.

The reality is that the vast majority of MTBs won't get ridden often or hard, so these are fine bikes for the average consumer.

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Losifer
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6/18/2024 1:28pm
Is it just me, or does an aluminum flex stay seem sketchy? I’m sure it’s designed to last fine for the typical 3-5 year ownership of...

Is it just me, or does an aluminum flex stay seem sketchy? I’m sure it’s designed to last fine for the typical 3-5 year ownership of a new frame, but it’s certainly not a bike I’d buy second hand given aluminum’s poor fatigue strength. It would be cool if you could swap the carbon rear triangle from an epic to extend the life of the bike instead of just having a cheap, disposable frame. As is, it seems like the soda can of MTB frames tho - light, cheap, and disposable. 

Thankfully someone else beat me to this.  I could add a lot more about how flex is inherent to any design, even if you don't "feel"...

Thankfully someone else beat me to this. 

I could add a lot more about how flex is inherent to any design, even if you don't "feel" it, and that aluminum can be made to work just fine depending on a myriad of factors. 

But instead, I just wanted an excuse to post an OG flex stay alloy bike (that worked) 

 

thresh wrote:

Huh, and I though Cannondale Scalpels were first to the party, but alas - indeed it is Gary Fisher.  Mind blown!

1998-99 Ibis would like a word...

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boozed
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6/18/2024 3:02pm
markb2392 wrote:
Can of worms opened! Yes it's recyclable, but not into its original form. Can use it in chopped strand stuff. Resin has to be burnt. Very...

Can of worms opened!

Yes it's recyclable, but not into its original form. Can use it in chopped strand stuff. Resin has to be burnt. Very expensive. No-one really does it.

Ally can be, but uses shit loads of energy to extract in raw form.

Swings and roundabouts. No-one ever quantifies the environmental damage. Chose your material and be a dick about it Laughing

If you really cared you'd hang onto your current bike until it brakes and not buy another one!

Fortunately the geometry formula for each "class" or "genre" of MTB has settled down to the point where holding on to a frame until it breaks is viable*.  My 2018 trail bike is still pretty close to "modern" in every dimension other than the seat tube angle, which is not something I think you could say about 99% of 2012 frames at the time**.  Even the parts are more or less the same as those being specified on brand new bikes.

* Of course it was always viable – just ride! – but the new hotness isn't significantly different any more.

** Amusingly my 2021 enduro bike is more "behind" modern enduro bikes than the 2018 trail bike is behind modern trail bikes, but it only takes an angle set to make up the difference.

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brash
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6/18/2024 4:00pm

I've still got my early 90's apollo everest in the garage (With manitou Ti SX's Smile )

that elevated CS was so soft you had 20mm of axle travel lol. I rode the shit out of that bike, it was so compliant in the rear end and is still uncracked. I'll restore it one day.

They looked amazing

 

Mine looking a little rough lol, next to it is an almost new Kona Cindercone. I have a problem

 

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earleb
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6/18/2024 5:15pm

Steel wins. Recyclable and easily repair, with a lower initial carbon footprint.

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austin-NC
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6/19/2024 5:11am

Carbon will never be a realistic "recyclable" material, aluminum and steel are much more recyclable. Most aluminum and steel is close to 75% recycled because its easy and cheap.  

And no we wont figure out how to make it reasonable to recycle carbon, if we haven't done that with plastic its not going to happen with carbon. 

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nskerb
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6/19/2024 6:21am

Aluminum is recyclable but do AL bikes ever actually get recycled? I think every bike bike ever ends up getting resold & ultimately in the hands of a random tweaker then ends it’s life either in a landfill or at the bottom of a body of water lol. 
 

Has anybody ever actually taken a bike to a scrap yard?

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6/19/2024 6:30am
nskerb wrote:
Aluminum is recyclable but do AL bikes ever actually get recycled? I think every bike bike ever ends up getting resold & ultimately in the hands...

Aluminum is recyclable but do AL bikes ever actually get recycled? I think every bike bike ever ends up getting resold & ultimately in the hands of a random tweaker then ends it’s life either in a landfill or at the bottom of a body of water lol. 
 

Has anybody ever actually taken a bike to a scrap yard?

I think bike co ops and good bike shops will if you write off the frame and bring it in for inspection or replacement/donation. 

1
6/19/2024 7:30am Edited Date/Time 6/19/2024 7:32am
nskerb wrote:
Aluminum is recyclable but do AL bikes ever actually get recycled? I think every bike bike ever ends up getting resold & ultimately in the hands...

Aluminum is recyclable but do AL bikes ever actually get recycled? I think every bike bike ever ends up getting resold & ultimately in the hands of a random tweaker then ends it’s life either in a landfill or at the bottom of a body of water lol. 
 

Has anybody ever actually taken a bike to a scrap yard?

I've seen zero evidence of aluminum frames being recycled. I ran bike shops for 10 years and never saw a recycling program. I still have never seen a hint of a recycling program, not at local shops and not at manufacturers.  There is no link on manufacturer websites to "recycle your aluminum frame here" .

Aluminum is recyclable, but with no public easily accessable way to do it, the rate of it actually happening is likely close to zero. 

 

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Finkill
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6/19/2024 7:46am
nskerb wrote:
Aluminum is recyclable but do AL bikes ever actually get recycled? I think every bike bike ever ends up getting resold & ultimately in the hands...

Aluminum is recyclable but do AL bikes ever actually get recycled? I think every bike bike ever ends up getting resold & ultimately in the hands of a random tweaker then ends it’s life either in a landfill or at the bottom of a body of water lol. 
 

Has anybody ever actually taken a bike to a scrap yard?

I've seen zero evidence of aluminum frames being recycled. I ran bike shops for 10 years and never saw a recycling program. I still have never...

I've seen zero evidence of aluminum frames being recycled. I ran bike shops for 10 years and never saw a recycling program. I still have never seen a hint of a recycling program, not at local shops and not at manufacturers.  There is no link on manufacturer websites to "recycle your aluminum frame here" .

Aluminum is recyclable, but with no public easily accessable way to do it, the rate of it actually happening is likely close to zero. 

 

Pretty much every bike shop I've seen in the UK will have metal waste bins, separate from the general waste. This is then taken off to be separated into different metals and recycled. Scrap metal is worth money.

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SteveClimber
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6/19/2024 7:52am Edited Date/Time 6/19/2024 7:53am
nskerb wrote:
Aluminum is recyclable but do AL bikes ever actually get recycled? I think every bike bike ever ends up getting resold & ultimately in the hands...

Aluminum is recyclable but do AL bikes ever actually get recycled? I think every bike bike ever ends up getting resold & ultimately in the hands of a random tweaker then ends it’s life either in a landfill or at the bottom of a body of water lol. 
 

Has anybody ever actually taken a bike to a scrap yard?

I've seen zero evidence of aluminum frames being recycled. I ran bike shops for 10 years and never saw a recycling program. I still have never...

I've seen zero evidence of aluminum frames being recycled. I ran bike shops for 10 years and never saw a recycling program. I still have never seen a hint of a recycling program, not at local shops and not at manufacturers.  There is no link on manufacturer websites to "recycle your aluminum frame here" .

Aluminum is recyclable, but with no public easily accessable way to do it, the rate of it actually happening is likely close to zero. 

 

Where are you disposing old frames?
 

In Australia our local tip has metals recycling and you just throw it in the correct metal pile, aluminium recycling rates around the world are between 30%-75%. Because it requires only 10% of the energy to re-smelt aluminium its one of the few metals worth recycling, as energy is the primary cost of it. 

I'd be surprised in America if you couldn't send it somewhere, as the industry globally recycles aluminium packaging, as its financially valuable to do so (unlike carbon or many many other materials).

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gibbon
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6/19/2024 8:33am Edited Date/Time 6/19/2024 8:38am

I used to seperate out all aluminium and steel waste into 2 seperate bins and when they were full take them to the recycling/scrap dealer in town.
I used to get good money (a long time ago) but kept doing it when prices dropped to zero.

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