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2/21/2020 11:03 AM

Agreed. But then you have the added issue, if you're looking at enduro bikes, that they have to work going up, seated and pedalling, and going down, standing 'up' and not pedalling (mostly). The weight distribution is more of an interest in the latter point, but i still think, for enduro bikes and down, that seated pedalling position and the efficiency of it is the most important part of the bike handling equation. Simply due to the time and energy spent in that part. But I think we've had a discussion about this before?

My post is of course not valid once it comes to lift assisted riding and/or DH racing and the like.

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2/21/2020 11:15 AM

I saw that it's steep. I said they're going fast. I was merely saying that the way the riding looks like, from the energy perspective (how they are throwing the bikes around and the like) is different going up from going down. I don't think there's an argument against that. With mountain bikes it's the other way around.

As for speed difference, XC bikes are slower going down than DH bikes. MX bikes are even chunkier than DH bikes so logic goes that they should handle terrain like that even better.

Anywho, I never said it's not worth investigating USD forks. Hell, i'd love to have millions just to throw money around and make proto USD forks, proto frames with reach values differing by 5 mm. Seat tube angles changing by 1°. Try out high pivot suspensions, change chainstays lengths, etc. Sadly, I'm not in that position. Based on what I can see and what I've experienced, I'm making my observations. And usually, if something is not on the market or is a niche on the market, it could be that for some reason it's not as good as what is on the market. 29ers were shitte, everybody said that. But now they are not. It's not that the wheel size got cool. The geometry changed to make them good. And so on. So maybe the reasons USD forks 'don't work' aren't true anymore and the market hasn't followed yet, but to have such a low hanging performance fruit with no drawbacks and not have it picked in the last 20+ years is simply impossible to me, if there is not some kind of a drawback behind it. And i was just trying to look for those.

As for experiments and not worth it, you can read in my 'first' post regarding this topic that i propose FEA analysis using Ansys to put get the numbers what USD and RSU forks do at different parameters (axle clamping, diameter, wall thickness, sliding tube diameters and wall thicknesses, hell, bushing overlap, etc.) in regards to torsional and longitudinal stiffness. If that's not promoting analysis (on the cheap), I don't know what is...

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2/21/2020 11:28 AM

Photo
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2/21/2020 11:54 AM

Photo

Proceeds to write the biggest wall of text. 😂
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2/21/2020 11:57 AM

My goodness, truck rumors in the Team Rumors thread....and now Moto here. If only Vital MTB had a motocross site....Oh wait!

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2/21/2020 12:00 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/21/2020 12:03 PM

didn't watch but it has an upside down fork in the thumbnail. google must be watching what i'm looking at b/c it was "recommended" to me on youtube all of a sudden.


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2/21/2020 12:12 PM

Pedal4life wrote:

Why does everybody try so hard to turn our mtb’s into moto’s? Parts that are missing from the equation, roughly 200+ lbs. then there’s the motor(obvious)so unless your Steve Austin The Six Million Dollar Man you ain’t gonna ever be spinning those pedals ever at even 1hp, engine braking, the moto bikes are truly incredible but our bicycles are way more incredible at this point. The whole motorcycle industry is in a time of huge change sales are waaay down innovation has slowed with the exception of a couple of manufacturers have kept the lights on but times are changing. The days of internal combustion powered fun are coming to a end. Well partially at least as gasoline powered generators might be a big player going forward.

Just because you bought an Ebike, doesn't mean everyone stopped racing motocross. I could see off-road moto dying though, that wouldn't suprise me as much as actual MX.

There was a bitchin electric MX bike a few years ago, it was called Alta MX or something and it was downright competitive with a 250F. The powers that be said no and the company eventually failed, so we will see gas powered motocross until the sport dies I think.

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2/21/2020 12:14 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/21/2020 2:32 PM

Because of the wall of text I didn't quote the post since that would cause an even bigger wall of text.

I've done a few races, I even did the megavalanche last year and surprised myself at the result (and disappointed myself at the same time with the riding I did in the race...).

Yeah, uphill performance in enduro races isn't a priority and maybe we'll see enduro racing specific bikes (Enduro being an example of that). But enduro bikes sell (maybe for the wrong reason) in the general riding public and many don't get taken to a race ever.

I have a dual 150 mm 29" bike (did the Mega with it) and my short loop is an hour ride with 3 minutes of descending. Everything else is pedalling. That's why I say pedalling is important. I was previously on the 2015 Reign, which was at the forefront of race inspired geometries. And there were quite a few Reigns in my riding group. This year the group got a good price on Santa Cruz offerings and most people chose the Hightower (I managed to convience two looking at Hightowers). One of them, against my judgement, chose the Megatower. After trying the Hightower (switching with a riding buddy) last week he feels he got the short end of the stick. I can see why. But that's the thing, people want more and race inspired enduro bikes will always be bought by people who shouldn't buy them. Granted, that's not an excuse to chop their legs of to make them fit the general public, but at the same time companies will probably hardly see a reason for a full race bike sold in tens compared to a 'lesser' model sold in thousands.

Honestly, this comes back to the failure of the 'DH is the F1 of MTB' claim. Race bikes should be custom. Unavailable to the general public. Maybe throw enduro bikes along with them for the pros. Though then you have the question who can buy those bikes, why not everybody, etc. etc.

Gah... I'm going out for a beer smile

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2/21/2020 1:00 PM

Pedal4life wrote:

Why does everybody try so hard to turn our mtb’s into moto’s? Parts that are missing from the equation, roughly 200+ lbs. then there’s the motor(obvious)so unless your Steve Austin The Six Million Dollar Man you ain’t gonna ever be spinning those pedals ever at even 1hp, engine braking, the moto bikes are truly incredible but our bicycles are way more incredible at this point. The whole motorcycle industry is in a time of huge change sales are waaay down innovation has slowed with the exception of a couple of manufacturers have kept the lights on but times are changing. The days of internal combustion powered fun are coming to a end. Well partially at least as gasoline powered generators might be a big player going forward.

Skerby wrote:

Just because you bought an Ebike, doesn't mean everyone stopped racing motocross. I could see off-road moto dying though, that wouldn't suprise me as much as actual MX.

There was a bitchin electric MX bike a few years ago, it was called Alta MX or something and it was downright competitive with a 250F. The powers that be said no and the company eventually failed, so we will see gas powered motocross until the sport dies I think.

No eBikes in my collection as of yet. 40+ years in the Motorsports industry gives me a perspective that having seen the whole growth of the industry to where we are now it’s almost the same & it’s just based on need.

Our tires could not have handled what we throw at them now, back then same with brakes, that all being said the 70’s were incredible with all the engine development & suspension development, happening almost simultaneously and the earlier USD Forks were crap.

1st rule don’t try to fix what ain’t broke!

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2/21/2020 2:40 PM

Oh no, i do not assume. I know that the market is not smart. I, looking at everything logically and from a technical point of view and buying a bike based on the geometry numbers and components that i want, am the worst enemy of the product manager and/or shop owner.

So, I do not assume, i HOPE the market will figure out what the market needs. Based on the 'fight' I had with above mentioned two members into convincing them into buying a Hightower over a Megatower (they are both thankful for it now) and based on the lost fight with the third one, I can see the reasoning and 'excusing' behind buying something that is over what you need. Can't say i'm not guilty of that at some point in life (look at me typing this on a six core unlocked CPU with 32 GB of RAM that i use for forum flamewaring and youtubing), but still, objectively it makes no sense...

So yeah, maybe we will see specialized enduro race machines with the market turning towards trail bikes that actually fit their purpose, but honestly i'm not holding my breath.

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2/21/2020 2:44 PM

LTrumpore wrote: Photo

Worth a double post here.

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2/21/2020 3:22 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/21/2020 3:24 PM

thegromit wrote:

Worth a double post here.

Isn't there another site where people argue the finer points of the physics of a world record distance jump for more pages than Team Roumours and then never actually do the jump? I gave up waiting and reading and that's why I'm here at Vital.

And short chain stays still rock. At least on my bikes.

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2/21/2020 4:32 PM

Philip_Rossetti wrote: Photo

A closer look at the new canyon sender. Looks like the shock moved down but other than that looks wise it’s pretty similar.

A lot of bikes now seem to be moving they’re shocks lowere and lower. Canyon sender, YT tues, Specialized demo, intense M9. I wonder if there’s a common advantage these bikes have found through this design or if it’s a trend

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2/21/2020 5:06 PM
Edited Date/Time: 2/21/2020 6:12 PM

JLutzy wrote:

A lot of bikes now seem to be moving they’re shocks lowere and lower. Canyon sender, YT tues, Specialized demo, intense M9. I wonder if there’s a common advantage these bikes have found through this design or if it’s a trend

It's a trend because of physics. A lower shock position makes it more stable and easier to turn I think.

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2/21/2020 11:58 PM

Big Bird wrote:

It's a trend because of physics. A lower shock position makes it more stable and easier to turn I think.

I'd hazard a guess it has more to do with mounting the shock and links closer to the BB area which is one of the stronger parts of the frame. The Session does that as well, but has the rocker mounted to the seat tube, relatively high up. Canyon here split the seat tube probably giving them more stiffness from the structure itself (you can still take it away by removing material).

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2/22/2020 1:35 AM

Also other than being stiffer, a lower shock position lowers the centre of gravity, which I know might sound like it doesn’t make a difference since a shock weighs 500-800g but theoretically it makes the bike easier to manoeuvre and stable.

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2/23/2020 12:43 PM

Photo

new prototype spotted?
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2/23/2020 12:59 PM

pete3dmunds wrote: Photo

new prototype spotted?

Mondraker 29 spotted in Lenzerheide last year

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2/24/2020 12:44 AM

jeff.brines wrote:

Watch how well moto USD forks handle chunky awful slickrock type terrain. The bikes float (and they aren't even mega tuned or anything, pretty off the shelf if i remember right). Russell is a freak for riding this in under an hour.



...and because I can't help but post it. Mario Roman from Romaniacs a few years ago. This is bonkers.

Mwhahaha, sorry for the off-topic, but Mario Roman's ”Sorry, bro!” is probably the best moment we've had on RoManiacs last year!

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=351751139105757

In other news, I think I'll be looking for a Dorado to see how it works on my bike. :D

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2/24/2020 4:12 AM

Photo

Dual crowns on an enduro or a really small demo?
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2/24/2020 5:13 AM

Doxey91 wrote: Photo

Dual crowns on an enduro or a really small demo?

More and more enduro bikes are dual-crown ready. Looks like brands are ready to the next generation of either bikepark bikes or enduro forks.

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2/25/2020 7:07 AM

Photo
VW

The new X2 replacement shock looks ready for production to me! I’m guessing it’ll be officially on the market this spring/summer
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2/25/2020 8:05 AM

New linkage at Tracey's Bike
Photo

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2/25/2020 2:06 PM

Philip_Rossetti wrote: Photo
VW

The new X2 replacement shock looks ready for production to me! I’m guessing it’ll be officially on the market this spring/summer

Sea Otter launch.

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2/25/2020 3:07 PM

I'm not going to address every point made in the last 4+ pages about inverted forks, but one thought did strike me reading the conversation:

I would bet money that the slacker your head angle, the more advantage an inverted design will have with regards to bushing bind. big upper tubes are going to flex less than paper thin stanchion tubes. So it might very well be that an inverted design would help with some of the problems suspension manufacturers are facing with modern forks, on modern bikes. I mean, for those keeping score at home, FOX, Rock Shox, and MRP all highlighted the work that they'd done to reduce seal friction in their 2020 offerings.

Modern forks are great, and I don't want to go back to old stuff, but if you squish a big dumb open bath fork from 15 years ago, next to a fancy modern fork, you WILL notice that the older fork is far less sticky.

(provided they've both been serviced recently.)

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2/25/2020 4:34 PM

groghunter wrote:

I'm not going to address every point made in the last 4+ pages about inverted forks, but one thought did strike me reading the conversation:

I would bet money that the slacker your head angle, the more advantage an inverted design will have with regards to bushing bind. big upper tubes are going to flex less than paper thin stanchion tubes. So it might very well be that an inverted design would help with some of the problems suspension manufacturers are facing with modern forks, on modern bikes. I mean, for those keeping score at home, FOX, Rock Shox, and MRP all highlighted the work that they'd done to reduce seal friction in their 2020 offerings.

Modern forks are great, and I don't want to go back to old stuff, but if you squish a big dumb open bath fork from 15 years ago, next to a fancy modern fork, you WILL notice that the older fork is far less sticky.

(provided they've both been serviced recently.)

Honda with there GL1800 pushed there product design for open road stability with slacker steering head angle(like us)but what they found was too much stichion in the telescoping fork to be able to get decent small bump compliance they redesigned the entire bike and went with a linkage suspension and steering system.

I bring this up because we are very near that point and it is not going to matter how much or how little weight they are asked to deal with the binding is gonna be the issue.

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2/25/2020 9:01 PM

Saw the kashima coated orange lowered fox 38 today in Rotorua and fuck it’s ugly

But definitely is 38mm

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2/25/2020 9:09 PM

Jrp wrote:

Saw the kashima coated orange lowered fox 38 today in Rotorua and fuck it’s ugly

But definitely is 38mm

How do you mean Lowered? Are we talking trail bike or dirt jumper status? Or my enduro double crown idea?

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2/25/2020 9:57 PM

Jrp wrote:

Saw the kashima coated orange lowered fox 38 today in Rotorua and fuck it’s ugly

But definitely is 38mm

Big Bird wrote:

How do you mean Lowered? Are we talking trail bike or dirt jumper status? Or my enduro double crown idea?

I think he ment it had orange lowers

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2/25/2020 10:00 PM

metadave wrote:

I think he ment it had orange lowers

Hand firmly in face.

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