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2020 MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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4/29/2020 6:02 AM

bulletbass man wrote:

Not suprised in the slightest. I wonder how one would run in hi position with a mullet setup. I've decided I just don't get along with long travel 29ers but Trek's M/L sizing fits me really well.

I bet the new 27.5 remedy in low position with a 150mm 29er fork up front would work just fine. Run a 46mm offset apposed to the 42 or 51 and I'd say you would be ready to rock.

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4/29/2020 6:24 AM

peecee wrote:

Maybe he prefers the old shock, but this isn't a surprise Troy and the Canyon team were using the old vivid for almost a year after the Super Deluxe came out, im guessing due to sizing but seems funny that Rockshox couldnt make a correct size super deluxe for team riders.
But its not like the guys on the circuit have the same going on inside their shocks as we do even thou its an old body the valving and other bits are prob quite different to what Joe public can get.

You'd be surprised... 99.9% of racers on the circuit have normal stuff in their shocks. Maybe custom shim stacks and always good maintenance.

That's it.

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4/29/2020 8:54 AM
Edited Date/Time: 4/29/2020 8:55 AM

Primoz wrote:

Yeah, same as Pinion, the output is now concentric.

For high pivot bikes this is a negative, their old design was better. But it was also clunky...

I don't know much about the differences between Pinion and Effigear, but I always wondered why so many gearbox mountain bikes seem to be going with Pinion. The high pivot Effigear design seems superior to me. But even a lot of the high pivot designs choose a Pinion with an idler over an Effigear with an offset output shaft. There must be some drawbacks I'm not aware of?

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4/29/2020 10:46 AM

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4/29/2020 11:47 AM

Loris has def tried the newer dhx2(mullet vs full 29 vid). Curious if that's what he likes or if that is what was available on picture day. Does the fork have "40" stickers on it as well? Fox ditching the "49" tag or am I seeing it wrong? Photoimg]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2020/04/29/9488/s1200_Screenshot_20200429_111824_Samsung_Internet.jpg[/img]

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4/29/2020 12:39 PM

They are just called 40s now in both sizes. Makes sense, they've never called their forks after a wheel size and the current crop are all named after stanchion diameter.

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4/29/2020 2:34 PM

sspomer wrote:

has this made the rounds here yet? 2015, so not 2020, but freaking rad

This is awesome, I wonder what the geometry is? Also how in the world have we not all gone to gearbox bikes yet?!?!

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4/30/2020 2:49 AM

Because they are heavy and draggy. But they could have huge benefits for high pivot bikes. And high pivot bikes could have huge benefits for 29ers as opposed to 26ers.

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4/30/2020 2:59 AM

Primoz wrote:

Because they are heavy and draggy. But they could have huge benefits for high pivot bikes. And high pivot bikes could have huge benefits for 29ers as opposed to 26ers.

They are also expensive. Maybe not so much compared to xtr or x01 but considering manufacturers would have to use a completely different frame design to hit most price points it’s unlikely they’ll become mass market until they are cheaper or the demand is high enough for them that they’ll cheapen builds elsewhere.

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4/30/2020 3:33 AM
Edited Date/Time: 4/30/2020 3:49 AM

Primoz wrote:

Yeah, same as Pinion, the output is now concentric.

For high pivot bikes this is a negative, their old design was better. But it was also clunky...

dlxah wrote:

I don't know much about the differences between Pinion and Effigear, but I always wondered why so many gearbox mountain bikes seem to be going with Pinion. The high pivot Effigear design seems superior to me. But even a lot of the high pivot designs choose a Pinion with an idler over an Effigear with an offset output shaft. There must be some drawbacks I'm not aware of?

Sorry, I missed this.

I was in contact with Effigear guys a few years back. I was told that in their case, you need to have the relative motion of the output shaft faster than the relative motion of the input shaft to release the shift mechanism to shift in one of the two ways (only one, not both). I forgot if it was shifting to an easier gear or a harder gear though.

Now, in practice that means they used a hub with no freewheel on it and a taught chain/belt, so the rear wheel 'powered' the gearbox. That meant that you let off the pedals and the rear wheel released the shifting mechanism. If you used a standard hub (with a freewheel), you had to backpedal a bit to release it, which is cumbersome to say the least.

That second point meant a suspension design that didn't use a concentric single pivot design wasn't possible or practical. That and their use of the housings meant a very specific frame design. A Pinion is much more interchangeable with a classic derailleur design, you maybe have to move a few pivots (like you have to with an e-bike - I'm really surprised the pinion electric strategy is their gearbox with an inhub motor as opposed to a modified casing with a motor attached to the output shaft, that would be so simple and practical, but i digress).


Now, I was asking the effigear guys what's up regarding the above points on their new design on Instagram yesterday and the reply was 'you can choose whatever you want' hub wise and 'the shifting mechanism is the same'. So either they updated that or it will be a cumbersome thing. I'm betting on the first given that Cavaliere also now has non-concentric designs as well.

As for gears, Effigear is sticking to their 490 %, Pinion is in the lead here with 600 % and their option of 9, 12 or 18 gears as opposed to the 9 of the Effigear.

Ideally I'd have a Pinion with all the clunk down low then and extended casing with an output gear higher up to facilitate high pivots with little maintenance (as opposed to using a jackshaft and two chains).

EDIT: maybe one additional point as a benefit of all gearboxes, it's much easier to get equal steps between gears because you can vary the modulo of the gears to get the desired gear ratio, where the modulo for the cassette-chain drivetrain is fixed at 0,5 inches.

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4/30/2020 11:02 PM

Seems it made it out from under the bench...... Photo

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5/3/2020 6:49 PM

Looks like DVO have a progressive coil coming. Seems to say prorate on one part and then have one spring rate and a dash next to it. Plus it looks like some of the coils are closer together Photo

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5/3/2020 7:42 PM

Primoz wrote:

Because they are heavy and draggy. But they could have huge benefits for high pivot bikes. And high pivot bikes could have huge benefits for 29ers as opposed to 26ers.

The drag complaint is funny because I would bet that at least 50% of people with derailleur bikes are experiencing more power loss dues to worn parts, cross-chaining, poor lube and poor cleaning practises than they would from a gearbox!

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5/3/2020 10:15 PM
Edited Date/Time: 5/3/2020 10:30 PM

New bike from specialized With some top riders and guerilla marketing strategy. #statusmtb on IG.

Can tell it’s a specialized from the heat tube/down tube junction, linkage, stays, and everyone on IG has Butcher tires.

Looks to be a dedicated mullet setup.

Would be pretty great if Specialized made a play against the YT/Canyon with a B2C sub-2000 all-arounder with solid geo and some profit line to local bike shops thru an upgrade catalog like KTM PowerParts, plus some type of optional service contracts/vouchers.
Photo


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5/3/2020 10:19 PM
Edited Date/Time: 5/3/2020 10:19 PM

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5/3/2020 10:25 PM

yep the old status was a free ride weapon back in the day, bring back the Big Hit!!!

I had one of those enduro evo's with the 180mm boxxers, Sort of before it's time in a way. If it was 1260mm wheelbase, mullet, 12 speed with dropper people would be losing their shit.

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5/3/2020 10:31 PM

A better shot

Photo

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5/3/2020 10:32 PM

Kenda's launching a new Aaron Gwin signature tire, the Pinner Pro. (BikeRadar over in the UK with the 12:01 a.m. post--I'm guessing the US outlets will be out of embargo in a couple hours? Link) I hope somebody does a back-to-back test of Gwin's Onza tire and his Kenda tire now.

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5/3/2020 10:40 PM

Right... another obvious giveaway since the name is almost certainly trademarked six ways from Sunday.

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5/3/2020 10:49 PM

brash wrote:

yep the old status was a free ride weapon back in the day, bring back the Big Hit!!!

I had one of those enduro evo's with the 180mm boxxers, Sort of before it's time in a way. If it was 1260mm wheelbase, mullet, 12 speed with dropper people would be losing their shit.

I always really liked those. In 2002, I bought my first real bike - a brand new Norco VPS Shore with the super dialed 2002 Monster T. That bike was a little heavier and the geo more outdated, but was part of the same thread of pedal-able dual crown aggressive trail bikes.

I podiumed some races on that bike - from weird, fringe freeride races to downhill to even a short course XC race. I was 14 and also a gym rat then, but I haven’t had a bike that well rounded since my 2015 Patrol.

Even though I worked in shops for a long time and loved fancy boutique bikes I used to buy - and built many miles of unsanctioned extreme trails...as a new father, I’m really looking forward to capable and fun bikes under $2000 that are approachable to the masses, and get more people out to public trail centers.

High-end, fringe, weird is ok for some - but there’s a lot higher likelihood my kid(s) will also enjoy the sport if it’s accessible and they have peers that are into it, too.

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5/3/2020 10:53 PM

Primoz wrote:

Because they are heavy and draggy. But they could have huge benefits for high pivot bikes. And high pivot bikes could have huge benefits for 29ers as opposed to 26ers.

TheSuspensionLabNZ wrote:

The drag complaint is funny because I would bet that at least 50% of people with derailleur bikes are experiencing more power loss dues to worn parts, cross-chaining, poor lube and poor cleaning practises than they would from a gearbox!

I ride a hardtail with a Pinion gearbox and I really can't feel any drag from the drivetrain.

if it were a road bike on smooth roads, sure you would feel it.

Also 600% is way too much range for general mtb usage. I rarely use 1st gear and never get above 9/10 on the trail. only when going for it on a flat road do I reach 12. Next time I'd save the 200g and go with 9 speed.

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5/3/2020 11:46 PM

Jrp wrote:

Looks like DVO have a progressive coil coming. Seems to say prorate on one part and then have one spring rate and a dash next to it. Plus it looks like some of the coils are closer together Photo

Nice catch!

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5/4/2020 9:53 AM

Some additional shots of the Status:

View this post on Instagram

A post shared by Carlton Deepcee Baker (@djdeepcee) on



View this post on Instagram

A post shared by Xylena Hoppen (@xylena_hoppen) on



View this post on Instagram

A post shared by Lauren Daney 🦈 (@tinyellmonsta) on



View this post on Instagram

A post shared by Jaime Saenz (@jaimesaenz87) on

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5/4/2020 10:28 AM

Ah yes the ole Specialized Habit. Complete with its own set of BMX jibbin’ types lol.

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5/4/2020 10:34 AM

TheSuspensionLabNZ wrote:

The drag complaint is funny because I would bet that at least 50% of people with derailleur bikes are experiencing more power loss dues to worn parts, cross-chaining, poor lube and poor cleaning practises than they would from a gearbox!

I wrote this in the morning but it somehow got lost... Anywho.

The way I was taught in college is that each bearing has an efficiency of 0,99 and each gear pair also has an efficiency of 0,99 (in the case of steel gears, which we have with Pinion). It's generalisation, but still. In a Pinion gearbox, the driven branch will have at least 6 bearings and 2 gear pairs doing the transmissioning of power from the pedals to the chain. Take away two bearings to substitute the bottom bracket of a classic derailleur transmission and you have 4 bearings and two gear pairs, giving you an efficiency of 0,99^6 = 94 %. So by design, the Pinion will lose _at least_ 6 % compared to the classical transmission because of the components a cassette-derailleur transmission doesn't have. You win some of that back with a straighter chain in the case of the Pinion, while a dirty and worn drivetrain is neither here nor there, it's more or less equal for both sides (okay, you could argue this issue is exacerbated with a worn chain, buy maybe the bendiness is actually improved with wear).

The kicker? With a P1.12 gearbox besides the powered branch I mentioned you also spin additional 5 gear pairs (it's a 3x4 layout, a two stage gearbox) where at least one of those two needs to be bearinged. They are not powered, so power losses will be smaller than on the driven branch, but the losses are still present.

Now, I do believe Pinion is relatively okay, I wouldn't be surprised if a Pinion is less lossy on it's own than say a DH casing, half empty aggro tread tyre is.

An additional remark, gearboxes being heavy I think came out of Rohloff internal gear hubs, where planetary drives are used. These use at least 3 planet gears which means, by definition, at least 6 bearing pair contacts (with each planet interfacing with the sun and the ring gear). And 3 bearings. The more planets you have, the more losses you have. So a Rohloff will be on the back foot from the start. And it could be the reason gearboxes are though to be draggy.

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5/4/2020 10:46 AM

TyranT21 wrote:

I ride a hardtail with a Pinion gearbox and I really can't feel any drag from the drivetrain.

if it were a road bike on smooth roads, sure you would feel it.

Also 600% is way too much range for general mtb usage. I rarely use 1st gear and never get above 9/10 on the trail. only when going for it on a flat road do I reach 12. Next time I'd save the 200g and go with 9 speed.

Sorry for the double post, but it's the Vital way... (I usually join these on other platforms).

What kind of tyre do you ride? Aiming at my previous post here.

Regarding the range, Pinion's P1.9 gearboxes have either 568 % of range (XR model) or 364 % (CR model). The latter is useless of course (this is essentially a 11-40 cassette, when even a 10-42 is not enough). The 568 % miiiight be a bit much, 520 % probably would be enough, I feel very well covered with the 500 % of Eagle range. Looking at the P1.9XR, the jumps are 24 %. Going to 20 % jumps in 9 gears gives you a range of 430 % which is not really enough and people already like to moan about the jumps in the cassettes we have now (case in point, Shimano 12sp 10-45 Rhythm cassette). So P1.12 with the 17,7 % jump between gears isn't that wrong. 600 % is too much range? A 16 % between gears would get you to 500 % of range, so just a little change between gears causes such a big change overall. So you're not profiting THAT much (2 percentage points) but keeping everything else the same. So you're saving 200 g to get much larger jumps between gears or get a really pitiful range of them. I'm taking the 200g.

Plus, the product has to cover a large variety of use cases. We have climbs where a 30-50 combo on a 29er is a must for a vast majority of people, yet on a slight downhill it's easy to spin up to 30-10 combo. On the same ride. And I'm well aware (from the ton of '11-36 and a single ring is enough, otherwise just walk or get fitter' comments on the internet) that people live in flatter areas. But then they could provide a custom gearing service. And that would get expensive really fast smile

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5/4/2020 11:06 AM

Primoz wrote:

I wrote this in the morning but it somehow got lost... Anywho.

The way I was taught in college is that each bearing has an efficiency of 0,99 and each gear pair also has an efficiency of 0,99 (in the case of steel gears, which we have with Pinion). It's generalisation, but still. In a Pinion gearbox, the driven branch will have at least 6 bearings and 2 gear pairs doing the transmissioning of power from the pedals to the chain. Take away two bearings to substitute the bottom bracket of a classic derailleur transmission and you have 4 bearings and two gear pairs, giving you an efficiency of 0,99^6 = 94 %. So by design, the Pinion will lose _at least_ 6 % compared to the classical transmission because of the components a cassette-derailleur transmission doesn't have. You win some of that back with a straighter chain in the case of the Pinion, while a dirty and worn drivetrain is neither here nor there, it's more or less equal for both sides (okay, you could argue this issue is exacerbated with a worn chain, buy maybe the bendiness is actually improved with wear).

The kicker? With a P1.12 gearbox besides the powered branch I mentioned you also spin additional 5 gear pairs (it's a 3x4 layout, a two stage gearbox) where at least one of those two needs to be bearinged. They are not powered, so power losses will be smaller than on the driven branch, but the losses are still present.

Now, I do believe Pinion is relatively okay, I wouldn't be surprised if a Pinion is less lossy on it's own than say a DH casing, half empty aggro tread tyre is.

An additional remark, gearboxes being heavy I think came out of Rohloff internal gear hubs, where planetary drives are used. These use at least 3 planet gears which means, by definition, at least 6 bearing pair contacts (with each planet interfacing with the sun and the ring gear). And 3 bearings. The more planets you have, the more losses you have. So a Rohloff will be on the back foot from the start. And it could be the reason gearboxes are though to be draggy.

what about the two jockey wheels & bearings in a derailleur?

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5/4/2020 11:24 AM

What I think is they don't do much because the chain is relatively slack (tensioned only by the derailleur cage in fact). That means any articulation and rotation will take up relatively small amounts of energy (or power) since the friction losses will be reduced.

That same fact is why I think idler pulleys also sometimes maybe feel draggy (I haven't had the chance to ride a bike with one yet, so going off Internet banter here) and most certainly are noisy - idler pulleys are invariably small.

Story time. With the classical drivetrain layout your chain is taught, how much depending on the power output, from the last tooth in contact with the cassette to the first tooth in contact with the chainring. As soon as you get to the second tooth (on either side), the amount of force applied to the chain lowers because of elasticity of both the sprocket and the chain (and a bit due to geometry of the forces acting on the system and all). Ballparking here, but I'd say somewhere around 5 to 10 teeth in all your tension in the chain is gone (depending on the sprocket size of course, it's probably 2 teeth for a 10T sprocket and up to 10 on a 50T sprocket). A similar story happens with threads in bolts and nuts, almost 90 % of the load is carried by the first three threads, then it all tapers off.

How does that all connect together? Your chain losses come from the rotation of the links. The bigger the chainring/sprocket, the less each link rotates when it wraps around the sprocket. Plus in a classical drivetrain the chain only unwraps once (coming off the cassette) and wraps (wrapping around the front chainring) once when it is taught, therefore producing any meaningful loss in the system from friction. All other movement of the chain is in a relatively slack condition and has much lower losses.

The idler? It adds a whole another unwrapping and rewrapping of the chain in the powered state and I think the chain is taught all around it because it's essentially pulled from both sides. Add the fact that idlers are small, increasing the angle of rotation in the links and you get more losses, more noise from all the tension, etc.

I hope I made it clear enough, if anything is not clear I can easily try to explain it again smile

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5/4/2020 7:23 PM
Edited Date/Time: 5/4/2020 7:24 PM

Primoz wrote:

Because they are heavy and draggy. But they could have huge benefits for high pivot bikes. And high pivot bikes could have huge benefits for 29ers as opposed to 26ers.

TheSuspensionLabNZ wrote:

The drag complaint is funny because I would bet that at least 50% of people with derailleur bikes are experiencing more power loss dues to worn parts, cross-chaining, poor lube and poor cleaning practises than they would from a gearbox!

Primoz wrote:

I wrote this in the morning but it somehow got lost... Anywho.

The way I was taught in college is that each bearing has an efficiency of 0,99 and each gear pair also has an efficiency of 0,99 (in the case of steel gears, which we have with Pinion). It's generalisation, but still. In a Pinion gearbox, the driven branch will have at least 6 bearings and 2 gear pairs doing the transmissioning of power from the pedals to the chain. Take away two bearings to substitute the bottom bracket of a classic derailleur transmission and you have 4 bearings and two gear pairs, giving you an efficiency of 0,99^6 = 94 %. So by design, the Pinion will lose _at least_ 6 % compared to the classical transmission because of the components a cassette-derailleur transmission doesn't have. You win some of that back with a straighter chain in the case of the Pinion, while a dirty and worn drivetrain is neither here nor there, it's more or less equal for both sides (okay, you could argue this issue is exacerbated with a worn chain, buy maybe the bendiness is actually improved with wear).

The kicker? With a P1.12 gearbox besides the powered branch I mentioned you also spin additional 5 gear pairs (it's a 3x4 layout, a two stage gearbox) where at least one of those two needs to be bearinged. They are not powered, so power losses will be smaller than on the driven branch, but the losses are still present.

Now, I do believe Pinion is relatively okay, I wouldn't be surprised if a Pinion is less lossy on it's own than say a DH casing, half empty aggro tread tyre is.

An additional remark, gearboxes being heavy I think came out of Rohloff internal gear hubs, where planetary drives are used. These use at least 3 planet gears which means, by definition, at least 6 bearing pair contacts (with each planet interfacing with the sun and the ring gear). And 3 bearings. The more planets you have, the more losses you have. So a Rohloff will be on the back foot from the start. And it could be the reason gearboxes are though to be draggy.

Yeah you're pretty spot on at 94% efficiency, thats consistent with the average measured power losses I've seen recorded for the pinion. If you compare it to the data from zerofrictioncycling.com, who have the best drivetrain data I have seen -

Factor in the vast differences in contamination resistance or absorption, differing levels of
chain and drive train maintenance, and real world differences between chains can easily be
10w+. There are cyclists using –unbeknownst to them – a poor performing lubricant and
with average attention to maintenance who will literally be running a 15 to 20w loss chain at
250w load, vs cycling buddies on a top performing lubricant with good maintenance sitting
anywhere between around 5 to 8w loss.


You can get bang on equal loss in power between the 2 (250w x .94 - 5w (for a good lube) = 230, 250w-20w (for a poor drivetrain) = 230!)

Taken from here - https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Key-Learnings-from-Lubricant-Testing-Round-1.pdf

And I agree, I think most peoples perception of Gearboxes comes from Rohloff hubs!

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5/4/2020 8:40 PM

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