Too many people in the world cup

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5/14/2010 3:30 PM

I just had a look at the startlist for the first World Cup and I feel that there's is too many people racing World Cup's these days and I think the UCI needs to tighten up the requirements to race. It could be just me but I think the World Cup should be for the elite of the sport only - the very top racers. It seems like any kid can race whether or not their anywhere near fast enough to qualify or not.

I also think that if the UCI made it tighter to qualify then there would be a positive flow-on for National level racing for each country as you would have to prove yourself at a National level before getting into the World Cup. It seems like National level racing has taken a dive because everyone can just go straight to the top (World Cup) without cutting their teeth at the lower levels. A good example is the ASP for surfing. You have to qualify to surf the ASP and it really is only the top of the top surfers who get to compete in the ASP.

Let's be honest, am I the only one who turns on freecaster when the top 30 start.

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5/22/2010 4:12 PM

I completely agree. I have talked about this before with friend and I would really like to see the UCI limit the amount of racers at a WC. I really like how the ASP does it, by only allowing the top 45 surfers in the world at each of the ASP stops.

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5/22/2010 6:46 PM

I agree too....

Maribor had almost 300 racers included men and women.

I think is too much....

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5/22/2010 6:53 PM

I think the UCI should accept the top 80 ranked riders in the world. This means riders have to finish high up the ladder at UCI official events, to get enough points to make it into the top 80. It means slower riders won't make the points they need to race a world cup.

There should also be allocations for 20 junior riders, as I feel top junior riders need to experience the world cups in preparation for when they step into Elite.

That's a total of 100 riders for each world cup event.

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5/22/2010 7:13 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/21/2016 10:19 AM

I think it's fine to have 250 guys trying to qualify, as long as you are paring it down to 80 on race day. give some of these guys a chance to ride their way into a spot on Sunday works for me. Besides, each rider has to have a pro license from his home country anyway.
Which should indicate that they've proven themselves in their home country. Ther respective national series, should just avoid scheduling races on WC weekends, to try and attract their best.

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5/22/2010 7:39 PM

this is dumb, so what if theres 300 riders trying to qualify? does it effect your sleep at night? only 80 people quali anyway. Give the up and comers a chance to make the big show, top 80 in the world is hard enough give it a rest brah.

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5/22/2010 8:51 PM

REALLY!

I Can't even believe this was brought up.

World cup series is already for the elite riders for the globe. So what that there was 300 + racers at the maribor race, they only take the top 80 who qualify for Sundays final event. It makes it way more fun to see 300 + racers give it there all to try to be the best in the world, and maybe make it to the final on Sunday.

Have you ever even looked into what it takes to get to ride the world cup series? It's F*^#-ng hard to make it to the world cup series. Here is a great example-
You need 20 UCI points to even qualify as a solo racer to go to the world cup race closest to you. That even includes if you are on a trade team that paid to have their rider at UCI events. The team riders still need 20 points to qualify or they can't go.
Now you have to get 20 UCI points, the USA has 3 chances all of the 2010 year to get those points, Plattekill,NY, National Champs, Colorado Crankworks. Also each of these races have different points available. ( Different UCI Cat points)
Here is the point break down per race- Plattekill,NY only top 5 guys get points at a UCI Cat 3 event. (1st-10, 2nd-6, 3rd-4, 4th-2, 5th-1)
National Champs only the top 25 guys get points at a (1st-110, 2nd-90, 3rd-70, 4th-60, 5th-50, 6th-45, 7th-40, 8th-35, 9th-30, 10th-25, 11th-20, 12th-18, 13th-16, 14th-14, 15th-12, 16th-10, 17th-9, 18th-8, 19th-7, 20th-6, 21st-5, 22nd-4, 23rd-3, 24th-2, 25th-1)
Colorado Crankworks only the top 10 guys get points at a UCI Cat 2 event. (1st-30, 2nd-20, 3rd-15, 4th-12, 5th-10, 6th-8, 7th-6, 8th-4, 9th-2, 10th-1)
So now that you have gone to any one of these 3 races and done really well in your country, and you are one of the top races for your nationality and gotten your 20 points you can find a flight, hotel, car rental, tools to put your bike together, shipping to get it all there, and be in a foreign country where you don't under stand their language, and time zone. Also not to mention it will probable cost you around $1,100 to $2,000 per race outside of your country. Now go to all the races and spend at least $10,000 for the whole world cup series.

And if anyone doesn't think that the top 80 in the world cup final is not fast you are so high its stupid! Only around 5 guys from the USA go to the world cup series per round and spend alot of their money to try their best in qualifying to have the chance to race the best riders in the world on Sunday. So who cares if everyone only watches the final 20 guys in the final, not everyone is sam hill, steve peat, greg minnar, and dan atherton. Thats the way racing goes. Have you ever watch a MX race, there are over 1,000 guys at a major MX race, and they only take the top 80 racers too in to main event races.

SO GET OVER IT, AND RIDE YOUR BIKE !!!!!!!

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Ride bikes, it's just plain fun! - Enjoy your next ride!

5/22/2010 9:42 PM

I am going to chime in here very briefly. I know there are some people here that have dreams and aspirations of becoming a WC level racer, or want a chance to qualify to race a WC when the opportunity arrises. if you have the proper UCI points than so be it. I am not going to argue or bicker about the money it costs to get there, or the language barriers, because you may or may not be aware of this, but racers from all of the world face the same challenges that we face here in America when it comes to travel,finances, or spoken word.

I am going to side with Damien, and the racers that are in fact elite and trying to qualify for the event that weekend. With 300 people, not all of them even have the right to be on the track that has been put before them. I have been walking the track during multiple UCI events overseas and some of these "elite" that show up to get there 15 seconds of fame can't make it down the track without causing major ballups, chaos or even injuring themselves. They are sport/expert level riders at best. It's ludicrous. It inhibits the riders that actually have a chance from qualifying, as well as the regular top 20 guys from putting in fast runs on the track, and actually pushing the level of the sport.

Hell it happens at the US Open every year, and no one seems to bitch and moan about entry caps then...they are just trying to make it there too... Open your eyes, wise up, and think about actually improving racing.

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5/22/2010 9:42 PM

This is hands down theee most idiotic topic I have ever read



WidenJ5, totally agree with you bro

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5/22/2010 10:21 PM

I totally agree with WidenJ5, let people have a good time and see how they stack up against their idols, it is only the qualis. It is probably something people will remember for life as a great experience, why rob them of that........!

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5/22/2010 10:27 PM

I bet the those against would jump at the opportunity if it was offered. I realise you are going to say you wouldn't.

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5/23/2010 12:16 AM

WidenJ5 - no need to take it so personally mate it's just a question for debating. I do ride my bike - about 5 times a week so I don't need to get over it and go ride :-)

Dang, I know how hard it is to race WC. Trust me mate.

What I am really trying to support is National level racing by making the WC's for only the top of the top of the top and that way you have to prove yourself at a National level. Maybe just like the ASP as you have to prove yourself and not anyone in the world can surf that them no matter how good they are or think they are. Maybe something like what they do - If you're finish in the bottom 20 in 2010 you're not automatically racing WC in 2011 and if you finish in the top 5 in your own country then you can apply to race and they pick the best riders to fill those 20 spots.

There has to be a limit at some point and the UCI even recognises that by the 20 point rule so they even think about it. Do you think the English Premier league would be as good if there were 300 teams???

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5/23/2010 2:20 AM
Edited Date/Time: 4/21/2016 10:19 AM

Right so 300 plus riders show up... for most yes it is there 15 minutes of fame but maybe just maybe for some it is a reality check as well. I know at 33 years of age that I will never be a World Cup racer. Maybe it will make a few of the younger ones or even older ones realise that yeah I'm fast on my home track and can kick some ass but when it's time to step up a level that they are few levels off.
I think it is good that the quali's are opened up to a wider range. After all there maybe some miracle rider undiscovered who may just get a chance.... (anyone remember Paul Basgotia). Ok yeah a slopstyle discovery but a discovery just the same. The fact that only the top 80 qualify I believe says that the UCI realise that only the best of the best should be at the elite level with exceptions being made for top 20 riders ie having a crash or mechanical in qualifying run.
You could break up practise for the top 20 and the rest of the field quite easily.
Many ways round having a mega field turn up.
My 2 cents worth.

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5/23/2010 4:59 AM

Daymz, in this instance i disagree with you, and side with WidenJ5. What he also failed to mention is that in the few UCI points races there are, often the points are snapped up by riders already holding the 20 min points needed. (or foreign riders as will be the case in Plattekill) A strong showing in the National Champs is really the only ticket. That or a National federation entry, which i feel should be first used for promising juniors, then newcomers with promise.

The fact that there should be more cat1 and cat 2 UCI points events in various countries, especially the USA is glaringly obvious.

As it stands now. On a regular world cup with XC, qualis are held on friday. And only top 80 get to practice Sat. This in its own right is hardly fair to new riders who only will have two short practice sessions since they are not top 80 to familiarize themselves with a course most other top 80 riders have raced on multiple times before. If you have any mechanicals or if there are uplift problems you may only end up with 5 runs on a new track, hardly preparation enough to qualify. So the UCI have already made it as tough as ever, believe me. You need talent and luck to break into the top 80, as we saw in Maribor with new blood as well as bad luck for good riders like Cedric and Dan Atherton who failed to qualify because of a crash in the mud or a mechanical.

But one thing i do agree with is offering a more elite level of competition, I believe we will see this in the not to distant future. I wont call it a breakaway series, but with an umbrella sponsorship and TV deal you could run some big "invitational" races offering big prize money, prestige and media exposure.

Already we have riders regularly showing up in Lisbon, US Open, willengen, Crankworx...

This will give you food for thought. 28 successful bids were accepted by the UCI this year. That means 28 organizers, venues etc had put up bonds and expressed interest in hosting a world cup. Only 6 DH ones were accepted into the series. We almost lost Wyndam, Schladming got changed and Maribor almost didnt happen (news to most)
It's not easy to work withihn the framework as an organizer.

Whats also worrying to me is hosting a spilt in the 2012 world championships. with XC and DH separate venues. This to me doesn't seem like a wise idea, splitting the companies, spectators and whole affair. The pits in Ft bill looked sad and the spectator numbers were down with no XC their last year....but i have drifted off topic on this thread.

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5/23/2010 6:44 AM

How does it even affect you, or anyone that doesn't race WC's, that there are 300+ starters? Sven hit the nail on the head with the points qualification argument. This is not an intelligent topic to argue. More racers = better races.

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5/23/2010 7:26 AM
Edited Date/Time: 10/4/2011 5:11 PM

Jon Widen, wup ganster, Totally agree with you bro, And Sven might have his finger on the pulse a bit more than the rest of us.

THE TOP 80 IS SO FAST

Just look at the bottom of Maribor Start list you will find some of the fastest guys from there countrys. They have to have a chance to compete!

Question: Is't the first WC DH always the biggest, Then the weak fall off as the season progress?

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5/23/2010 7:50 AM

If there are more riders then the UCI makes more money from entry fees etc. so isn't that a good thing. More money to spend on the races themselves and on expansion of the World Cup series as a whole.

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5/23/2010 8:11 AM

I am pretty sure this topic was brought up to get more forum views, because this is the most idiotic post I have read in here.

I wish there were 450 riders trying to qualify, as nevegal used to be back in the day and nevegal always had the highest ratings of all the eurosport races.

More racers, bring it on.

A lot of racers at the world championships? now thats another argument.

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5/23/2010 8:22 AM

so what? they are obvs still very skilled riders... so why not? if anything it helps Downhill Mountain biking progress as more people have something to aim for, because they are more likley to get a chance to race in something as big as the UCI World Cup... does it really hurt anyone or damage anything to have that amount of riders?

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5/23/2010 8:59 AM
Edited Date/Time: 10/4/2011 5:11 PM

it's really interesting that everyone is so up in arms about this. i see both sides of the argument. yes, there's a structured qualifying process in place that gives riders a chance to enter and try to qualify at a world cup. BUT, is this the best structure? maybe not, maybe so. some would argue there are too many slow, in-the-way people during practice which could be dangerous (even though there's a top 80 practice session) and i think that is a valid point.

if one uses the WCT surfing contests as an example (equivalent to our world cup) there is a smaller elite field and tougher qualifying procedures with some wildcard options for local competitors. it keeps the elite very elite. is this applicable to mountain biking? possibly. is it the best for mountain biking? who knows, but i think it's fun to discuss. no need to get all bent.

and stik, this has nothing to do with forum views, so you can stop trolling.

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5/23/2010 9:02 AM

WidenJ5, hit the nail on the head.

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I'm Slow

5/23/2010 9:05 AM

Is 300 too many people? Yeah, of course it is.

Sure the group gets pared down to 80 after qualifying, but that means that the 80 best riders in the world still have to get stuck behind the 300th best rider in the world during practice.

Why are there so many riders at Maribor? Look at the rules. Every country gets to field 10 riders per race, irregardless of their population. There are 27 European Union countries, all sending 10 people each. America gets to send 10 riders.

Europe's population= 2.5 times greater than the U.S.

Europe's UCI field=22 times greater than the U.S.

Plus, factor in the wealth of UCI qualification races available in Europe v. America, and it's pretty hopeless for midpack pros in America.

It's not a pro U.S. thing, but treating Latvia and Estonia and Slovenia as equal to DH powerhouses like the US, France, GB or RSA? That's just stupid.

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5/23/2010 9:07 AM

Spomer said: "even though there's a top 80 practice session)"

Thus totally destroying my point. If top pros don't have to practice with all the midpack guys, then it doesn't really matter.

But it still sucks to be an almost good enough racer in the U.S.

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5/23/2010 11:24 AM

FYI a lot of Eastern and central European riders smoked a bunch of US and other "western riders" be careful of generalizing. At least these countries have their shit together and actually raise money to have UCI sanctioned Cat 1 and Cat 2 races. They are not all there as federation entries. You cant say the same for the richest country in the world.

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5/23/2010 11:44 AM

-not 'up in arms' or 'bent'.

-not trolling, just thought it a bit of a crazy notion....but then again, I have no idea what trolling means.

-comparing WC MTB to surfing? that comparison fails quickly when you remember the surfing field HAS to be smaller, due to swell conditions, can only have a limited number of people 'practicing', etc....

-you could use MX scenario where there are different groups that get practice time?

-did this whole thread start because DAYMZ got stuck behind some slovenian in practice and is now a hater?

Its simply a difference of opinion I guess, I see the huge fields of riders as a great sign and I come from a day when there were no less than 250 riders trying to qualify at the world cups.




happy face
smile smile sarcasm fun

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5/23/2010 11:51 AM
Edited Date/Time: 4/21/2016 10:19 AM

I´m gonna have to disagree with the threadstarter, I see no problem with the way it is. Sure, there are pretty crowded lifts and practice sessions (when not limited to top80) at a few worldcups but most of the time (that´s how I experienced it in the last 2 years) the number of starters hovers around 150 or 180. That´s pretty bearable I think. And since the UCI is (probably) aware of this problem, there are top-80 practice sessions and the aforementioned qualifying.

Sure, every random guy with a pro license can go race a WC - but most of them don´t survive quali and therefore are out of the race. The good thing with that system is, the young guns get a shot at it aswell and can get their head around what might face them when they turn old enough for elite.


Let´s keep it that way.




/edit: By the way, the field at the XC WC #3 in Offenburg/Germany today had 220+ starters for the elite men. Start working on that before limiting starter numbers in DH.

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fotojournalismus.org

5/23/2010 12:30 PM
Edited Date/Time: 5/23/2010 12:41 PM

All I can say is that whoever thinks less riders should be aloud to race clearly does not have much knowledge of the racing scene in places like Britain right now. They also do not realise how many variables (weather, crashes, riding style suited to track) effect the results. Anyone who actually looks at the world cup results will know that the results from riders from about 20th to 80th vary a lot from each race. There are guys that are capable of top 20 or top 30 race that end up 60th another. There is also riders who might be top 40 at one round but not qualify the next.Results change dramatically from race to race. How would you decide the elite few at the start of the year? If you picked it from the year before it would be completely invalid as many riders are young and progress greatly from year to year. Here's an example, Joe Smith Top Ten at Maribor, but I doubt many people outside of the uk would have predicted that coming into the season.



I also know plenty of riders in the uk that have qualified for world cups that technically don't have enough enough UCI points to ride at them so have had to ride for the british team. I think making it even harder to get in would seriously screw up a lot of the brits. I know guys capable of top 30 that have had to go to other countries to get points.



I can think of so many examples that show making it harder would be stupid.

for instance: Adam Brayton 6th at champery, struggling to get points this year.

Mark Scott, one of the top british juniors and also one of the top juniors in the world would struggle to get many uci points in the uk. But he qualified at Maribor and he was one of last riders down in qualifying (number 200 and something).

Riders like Gwin and Adam Brayton crashing out of the top 80 at Maribor



Each race track is different so while some riders might excel at one race they may struggle at another.



With Top 80 practice, people getting in the way is obviously not an issue. As for broadcasting the event on TV, I don't see any problem with a program just showing the top 30. Unless an awesome rider qualifies poorly and ends up top ten or something.



Hope that puts across my point clearly. I reckon most people serious about racing would agree with what I've said.



Ronan

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5/23/2010 1:02 PM

daymz wrote:

WidenJ5 - no need to take it so personally mate it's just a question for debating. I do ride my bike - about 5 times a week so I don't need to get over it and go ride :-)

Dang, I know how hard it is to race WC. Trust me mate.

What I am really trying to support is National level racing by making the WC's for only the top of the top of the top and that way you have to prove yourself at a National level. Maybe just like the ASP as you have to prove yourself and not anyone in the world can surf that them no matter how good they are or think they are. Maybe something like what they do - If you're finish in the bottom 20 in 2010 you're not automatically racing WC in 2011 and if you finish in the top 5 in your own country then you can apply to race and they pick the best riders to fill those 20 spots.

There has to be a limit at some point and the UCI even recognises that by the 20 point rule so they even think about it. Do you think the English Premier league would be as good if there were 300 teams???

daymz says: "if you finish in the top 5 in your own country then you can apply to race"

Just read this and I think this confirms how insane your idea is. Do you realise how hard it is to be top 5 in some countries? And how the top 5 changes from year to year? It would also be pretty embarassing to be a top 5 rider but have to "apply" to world cups. Sorry if I'm getting the wrong end of the stick with what your saying there but I think thats what you were meaning.

daymz says: "Do you think the English Premier league would be as good if there were 300 teams???"
Again I think this is a completely ludicrous comment. It shows the way your thinking abot the world cups is pretty strange. I mean who takes ideas of how to run a competition where a single person takes part in a short timed race from a team game lasting over an hour?

Ronan
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5/23/2010 3:21 PM

To all the haters please don't mate wild assumptions that I have no idea about racing. Also, it may be a difficult on concept for a few of you but there's no need to get so emotive about this - it's something I threw up as a debate. I'm not attacking anyone or trying to hurt anyones feelings. Heck I have friends who are racing the circuit and trying all their best to qualify and I hope they can do it 'cause they deserve it.

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5/23/2010 3:39 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/21/2016 10:19 AM

I hope I can race a World Cup one day, so I hope they lower their standards tremendously.


I think Damian and Sven need to go toe-to-toe in creamed-corn wrestling to settle this, Stikman you can take the photos.


Sven, the US ain't the richest country in the world; that'd be Qatar, Liechtenstein, or Luxembourg depending on who you get your facts from - and none of those countries are putting out World Cup talent either, so there! Smile


Daymz can ride a bike pretty darn well...and isn't a dummy

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