iceman2058's Comments

Added a comment about feature We Ride Coil and Air Shocks Back-to-Back 10/20/2017 12:50 AM
C50_johan_1385064431

By choosing a coil spring that gives the same bottom out force as the air spring, you are in fact choosing to run much less sag, thus also affecting your ride height and the bike's handling characteristics (to a degree). This may be good or bad, depending on your preferences and riding style.

Now, what you have stated above really touches on the core of the issue: air shocks are progressive, coils springs are not. To optimize either, the best way is to design the frame around the intended application. If you built a frame exclusively for coil use, you'd give it a ton of mechanical ramp up in the linkage, to get an effective spring rate curve that looks like the air curve. If the frame is NOT optimized for either spring type, you end up having to use various "crutches" such as compression damping, changing spring rates, using tokens in air shocks on linear frames etc etc.

The bottom line is: on the right bike, coil is awesome. How close to "perfect" you can get it is a moot point, there are so many variables in suspension set-up that personal preference is the ultimate deciding factor. In my case for example, I don't see myself removing the coil shock from this bike in the near future, even if I touch the bottom of the shock 5% more.

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Added a comment about photo first attempt on a new line 10/18/2017 11:39 AM
C138_8u1a9304

Daily Shot October 18, 2017!

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  • Vital MTB member YakuT
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Added a comment about feature We Ride Coil and Air Shocks Back-to-Back 10/18/2017 8:48 AM
C50_johan_1385064431

The Super Deluxe is a great shock, we've ridden it on many bikes and we've been very impressed with it since day 1. It's a significant improvement over the Monarch series.

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Added a comment about feature We Ride Coil and Air Shocks Back-to-Back 10/18/2017 7:50 AM
C50_johan_1385064431

My sag was well within acceptable limits also at 2 turns of preload....but sure, I could go up another step in spring rate. As you could hopefully gather from the rest of the article however, the bike does not have a bottom out "problem" at all as it sits now, I've been riding it that way for two months. (FYI, common spring rate calculators put me at around 390 initially...and that's without taking into account the falling leverage ratio curve).

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Added a comment about feature We Ride Coil and Air Shocks Back-to-Back 10/18/2017 6:59 AM
C50_johan_1385064431

I never said I didn't have the right sag... I set it up to give about the same sag I was running on the air shock (~30%). Now, for a more telling example of the difference between these two shocks, I can run the air shock at 40% sag off that same drop and NOT bottom it out like the coil shock. Air just ramps up a whole lot more, further amplified on this bike by the sharply falling leverage ratio of the suspension linkage.

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Added a comment to stevecb78's bike check 10/18/2017 2:11 AM
C138_img_20170825_wa0012

Bike of the Day October 18, 2017!

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Added a comment about feature We Ride Coil and Air Shocks Back-to-Back 10/18/2017 12:47 AM
C50_johan_1385064431

Effective spring rate: the spring rate at the wheel. But to your point, yes, preload actually just changes the starting point of your spring curve (how much force is needed to start the spring into its travel). The slope of the spring curve remains unchanged (because a coil shock is linear). The point of this part of the discussion is still that a longer spring will allow you to use more preload (within the constraints of the amount of travel available from the shock body).

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Added a comment about feature We Ride Coil and Air Shocks Back-to-Back 10/18/2017 12:27 AM
C50_johan_1385064431

TBF I did say "just after the sag area" in the article...but maybe that could have been clearer, yes.

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Added a comment about feature We Ride Coil and Air Shocks Back-to-Back 10/17/2017 11:03 PM
C50_johan_1385064431

Obviously yes, but there is still the matter of the shape of the spring curve which I feel has a lot to do with generating "pop" as well.

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Added a comment about feature We Ride Coil and Air Shocks Back-to-Back 10/17/2017 11:02 PM
C50_johan_1385064431

With the caveat that if you run a longer spring on the same shock body, you can preload it more to bump up the effective spring rate. Because you have more room to load up the coil without causing it to bottom out on itself at the end of travel.

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  • Vital MTB member stagnant
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Added a comment about feature We Ride Coil and Air Shocks Back-to-Back 10/17/2017 10:59 PM
C50_johan_1385064431

No real feel for which one might have been faster, that trail is short and any difference would be hard to attribute to the shock, with so many opportunities to screw up the riding along the way. I think that if your runs include any kind of pedaling and/or twisty awkward turns that are hard to generate speed out of, the air shock would have an edge. On longer, steeper and rougher runs the coil might provide the kind of serenity that will make a difference towards the end when you get tired.

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Added a comment about feature We Ride Coil and Air Shocks Back-to-Back 10/17/2017 10:55 PM
C50_johan_1385064431

We are talking about the shock here, not the fork...but yes, the graph was meant to be illustrative and not an actual representation of the spring rate curves here. Now, when we're talking about "pop", we typically refer to events that can easily use up 50% of travel or more, preloading the suspension for a bunny hop or pushing into a turn with lots of support for example. In those cases, we're clearly always going to be well into the steeper part of the the spring rate curve on an air shock.

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Added a comment about feature We Ride Coil and Air Shocks Back-to-Back 10/17/2017 10:52 PM
C50_johan_1385064431

Yeah, the video tends to flatten stuff out a bit...that feature is by no means big, but it is a bit awkward for the suspension. When you come at it with a bit of speed, you catch a landing area that is almost uphill, and the lip actually has a bit of an upward slope to it, so it pops you up as well. All that to say, I have bottomed out plenty of more linear bikes there with enough spring rate for most other trails I ride. All the other coil bike pics in the article were shot with the same spring rate, with no bottoming out anywhere.

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Added a comment about photo Kysak 10/17/2017 12:10 PM
C138_kyyska_9

Daily Shot October 17, 2017!

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Added a comment about feature We Ride Coil and Air Shocks Back-to-Back 10/17/2017 10:39 AM
C50_johan_1385064431

As somebody who has American parents and who has lived and worked most his life in various English-speaking countries/companies, I might contest your use of the term "widely believed" in this context, as "niggles" is definitely a term used in many places to describe "minor issues" (and certainly not intended to be derogatory in this article, as if that actually needed to be pointed out). However, as a citizen of the world of 2017 I believe we have enough problems caused by the insensitive use of potentially derogatory terms (and the corresponding deeper, underlying social issues) to gladly take your criticism at face value and adjust accordingly. The article has been updated. Thanks for making your discomfort known to me.

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Added a comment about feature We Ride Coil and Air Shocks Back-to-Back 10/17/2017 9:56 AM
C50_johan_1385064431

Yes I did, but there's still something slightly "dead" about it. I guess pushing against a dynamically loaded (air)spring is inherently more "bouncy" than pushing against a platform, regardless of how stiff that platform is? Glad you liked the article!

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Added a comment about feature We Ride Coil and Air Shocks Back-to-Back 10/17/2017 8:55 AM
C50_johan_1385064431

Yeah, there is a definitely a big difference in how the bike feels with the coil shock, that's for sure.

My settings (on the air shock, add 2-3 clicks of HSC on the coil shock):

LSC 14 from closed
HSC 15 from closed (12 from closed on the coil)
LSR 12 clicks from closed
HSR 12 clicks from closed

I'm 190lbs, I run 190 psi in the air shock, with 2 or 3 of the "tokens" (inserts). On the coil shock, a 425lbs spring with 3 turns of preload (I think the 425 only exists in 3.0 length, it was a squeeze to install but it works fine).

As for the climb switch - the stock Monarch shock that came on the bike has a way firmer tune than the Float X2 (or DHX2) when comparing the open modes. For that reason, I never felt a need to use it on the Monarch. However, once I moved to the Fox shock, I found myself running more open compression settings, which meant the shock was also more sensitive to bobbing. In this scenario, the climb switch is definitely worth it! When I tested the first version of the shock (without the lever), I ran firmer settings to compensate for not having the climb switch, but once you have the switch, it's much more fun to leave the shock more open (since you can now just lock it out for the climbs instead).

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Added a comment about feature We Ride Coil and Air Shocks Back-to-Back 10/17/2017 8:43 AM
C50_johan_1385064431

I don't have any experience with coil on that bike, so I wouldn't know how to answer your question.

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Added a comment to ReEvolution's bike check 10/17/2017 12:37 AM
C138_dsc08541

Bike of the Day October 17, 2017!

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Added a comment about photo SLAYERIZED 10/16/2017 1:56 PM
C138_botkins_trojan

Daily Shot October 16, 2017!

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